The Ukraine War

[Archied]

1 hour ago, Crewton said:

I'm sorry, but you sound utterly deluded. I'd rather address the reality of what's happening than put my faith in swords turning into ploughshares. There's a saying doing the rounds that I believe is pretty close to the truth : if Russia stops fighting there will be no war. If Ukraine stops fighting there will be no Ukraine. 

The reality is people are dieing and it’s not you and yours ,one man’s deluded is anther man’s humane

[Crewton]

16 minutes ago, Archied said:

The reality is people are dieing and it’s not you and yours ,one man’s deluded is anther man’s humane

It's not you and yours either, so get off your high horse and stop trying to dictate how they should respond. 

[Leeds Ram]

2 hours ago, Archied said:

Oh well that’s ok then , let’s crack on with both sides conscripting ordinary people to kill each other and prolong the bloodshed ,, no in fact  you crack on,, me ? I will stick to and voice the opinion that this shat needs to be stood up against by the masses and stopped 

how in this day and age we have learnt nothing is beyond me 

 

So your answer is for Ukraine to just let Russia run over them.... this is as bad as the America firsters who gained a hint of popularity for their deranged isolationism during ww2 before Pearl Habour 

Edited September 26, 2022 by Leeds Ram

[Archied]

10 hours ago, Crewton said:

It's not you and yours either, so get off your high horse and stop trying to dictate how they should respond. 

Your right it’s not me and mine hence why I’m not tub thumping for one side or the other from the comfort of my sofa,

this sub debate started when Russia decided to conscript people , some pointed out they thought that was wrong,

I pointed out that in my opinion ANY conscription is wrong ,I’m not on a high horse and neither do I put any country that does it on a high horse ,

your free to disagree ??‍♂️

Edited September 27, 2022 by Archied

[Archied]

10 hours ago, Leeds Ram said:

So your answer is for Ukraine to just let Russia run over them.... this is as bad as the America firsters who gained a hint of popularity for their deranged isolationism during ww2 before Pearl Habour 

If that were the case then I would have no problem with Russia forcing conscription 

anyway perhaps time to move on from the conscription disagreement as it’s clear some think it’s ok ( sometimes ) and a believe it’s wrong and never the Twain shall meet it appears

Edited September 27, 2022 by Archied

[1of4]

Not sure if the recent protests in Russia are against the war or protests against the conscription of more men.

Noticed that the protesters are predominantly women. I think when women are the major moving force behind a protest, it seems to become more escalated and the authorities have to take more notice. As is presently happening in Iran.

  So it will be interesting to see what Putin does next.

Edited September 27, 2022 by 1of4

[Wolfie]

OK so who's sabotaging the gas pipelines, then?.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63044747

I'm struggling to work out who gains from this. Is it just Russia underlining that there won't be any gas into the EU this winter?.

[uttoxram75]

9 hours ago, Wolfie said:

OK so who's sabotaging the gas pipelines, then?.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63044747

I'm struggling to work out who gains from this. Is it just Russia underlining that there won't be any gas into the EU this winter?.

Theres a video of a Joe Biden speech saying they will stop Nord Stream 2 thats currently doing the rounds on twitter. No idea if its footage of a genuine speech or not.

[Alph]

America would never!! 

Why would they want Europe to be in an energy crisis? 

Can't believe the world's leading exporter of LNG could be dragged into this mess. Never would they do something so underhand in a situation so desperate for so many. They're the good guys. This war has been just awful for them too. 

Tbh if it was them they could come out and admit it. People would still join their empire. Sorry, alliance. 

[Crewton]

6 hours ago, Alpha said:

America would never!! 

Why would they want Europe to be in an energy crisis? 

Can't believe the world's leading exporter of LNG could be dragged into this mess. Never would they do something so underhand in a situation so desperate for so many. They're the good guys. This war has been just awful for them too. 

Tbh if it was them they could come out and admit it. People would still join their empire. Sorry, alliance. 

Yawn. 

[Alph]

19 minutes ago, Crewton said:

Yawn. 

Nice.

Ever thought about ignoring or responding why Russia would need to sabotage a pipe they can shut off for "maintenance" instead of just being passive aggressive rude? 

Classic internet warfare there. 

[Highgate]

So, I'm sure to nobody's surprise Russian news agencies have announced that the 4 occupied regions of Ukraine (not including Crimea) have all opted to join Russia by massive margins in the recent referendums. 87% of those in Kherson, 93% in Zaporizhzhia, 98% in Luhansk and 99% of voters in Donetsk have opted to join Russia. 

Presumably this is the prelude to an official annexation by Russia, which the Kremlin says will result in a significant change in terms of international law (I didn't know Putin concerned himself with international law).  The Kremlin says Russia will then be justified in defending it's recently annexed territory by any means available.  

Putin must surely know that nobody outside Russia will believe these referendums were anything more than a stage managed farce.  So why even bother with them?  Possibly it's more for the domestic audience than anything else. 

One depressing result of the imminent annexations is that it seems there is no room for any sort of negotiation.  No agreement that Ukraine won't join NATO or future real referendums in Crimea and Donbas will suffice.  Russia is taking a big chunk of Ukraine and it won't leave unless they are driven out.   And what if Ukraine is successful, if they can somehow manage to push the Russian Army out of the newly annexed regions....what is Putin prepared to do to avoid personal and national humiliation? 

 

[Tamworthram]

11 minutes ago, Highgate said:

So, I'm sure to nobody's surprise Russian news agencies have announced that the 4 occupied regions of Ukraine (not including Crimea) have all opted to join Russia by massive margins in the recent referendums. 87% of those in Kherson, 93% in Zaporizhzhia, 98% in Luhansk and 99% of voters in Donetsk have opted to join Russia. 

Presumably this is the prelude to an official annexation by Russia, which the Kremlin says will result in a significant change in terms of international law (I didn't know Putin concerned himself with international law).  The Kremlin says Russia will then be justified in defending it's recently annexed territory by any means available.  

Putin must surely know that nobody outside Russia will believe these referendums were anything more than a stage managed farce.  So why even bother with them?  Possibly it's more for the domestic audience than anything else. 

One depressing result of the imminent annexations is that it seems there is no room for any sort of negotiation.  No agreement that Ukraine won't join NATO or future real referendums in Crimea and Donbas will suffice.  Russia is taking a big chunk of Ukraine and it won't leave unless they are driven out.   And what if Ukraine is successful, if they can somehow manage to push the Russian Army out of the newly annexed regions....what is Putin prepared to do to avoid personal and national humiliation? 

 

Absolutely agree. A desperate and dangerous tactic by Russia that now makes it very difficult for any sort of negotiated end to the war. Even if Ukraine did agree to a ceasefire and negotiated conclusion surely it would have to include a lawful and externally monitored referendum. I can’t see how Russia would agree to that as it would effectively confirm the referendums just held are invalid.

@BaaLocks, we may not always agree with what you say but I find it interesting and helpful, in the interests of balance, to hear a view from a different perspective. What are your thoughts on this?

[Crewton]

2 hours ago, Alpha said:

Nice.

Ever thought about ignoring or responding why Russia would need to sabotage a pipe they can shut off for "maintenance" instead of just being passive aggressive rude? 

Classic internet warfare there. 

I haven't made a comment about the pipeline explosions either way. It's you that came out with an unsubstantiated diatribe fully in accordance with your previous postings about this conflict which also clearly display your clear political bias. 

That's why I found it boring and commented accordingly. 

[Alph]

45 minutes ago, Crewton said:

I haven't made a comment about the pipeline explosions either way. It's you that came out with an unsubstantiated diatribe fully in accordance with your previous postings about this conflict which also clearly display your clear political bias. 

That's why I found it boring and commented accordingly. 

It was a reply to the 2 posts above mine. The speech Utch mentioned is a Biden speech in which he said they will stop the pipeline and when asked how he said "I promise, we can do that."

The reason this is doing the rounds on the internet is not because of me but because of a tweet from a Polish politician. I think he was meaning to suggest Russia has tried to frame American interference or something possibly. The post was quite strange. But it's not me that came out with the unsubstantiated diatribe. 

You could not comment on it? You know like in RL where you wouldn't rudely yawn when I spoke.

That way the thread can stay friendly whatever my political bias (which is that I hope Ukraine win the war and I can be anti America and anti Russia interference and wish both to fight their wars on bloody Mars).

It's not hard to not be rude. Even online where it's much safer 

[Comrade 86]

3 hours ago, Alpha said:

...why would Russia need to sabotage a pipe they can shut off for "maintenance"

That's a pretty easy question to answer if approached from a neutral standpoint - plausible deniability. If they are the guilty party, then it clearly would suit their purpose to have some believe otherwise, as you clearly do. After all, how would going down the 'maintenance route' play out in the battle for hearts and minds?

I'm afraid seeking to apportion blame on the basis that if only the US benefits, then only the US could have done it, is a path fraught with pitfalls. And for the sake of clarity, I have no idea at all who is responsible and neither does anyone on this thread, but I would wager good money on the likely aggressor nonetheless.

[Wolfie]

I'm not normally one for conspiracy theories but this topic has me scratching my head. I've just seen this elsewhere and it's actually quite plausible that Putin could have arranged this for his own security:

By sabotaging the gas pipelines, Putin improves his own safety by removing one of the motives for his own defensteration - even if he were removed from power, the gas exports to Europe are not restarting any time soon.

It might give plotting oligarchs something to think about.

[Alph]

35 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

That's a pretty easy question to answer if approached from a neutral standpoint - plausible deniability. If they are the guilty party, then it clearly would suit their purpose to have some believe otherwise, as you clearly do. After all, how would going down the 'maintenance route' play out in the battle for hearts and minds?

I'm afraid seeking to apportion blame on the basis that if only the US benefits, then only the US could have done it, is a path fraught with pitfalls. And for the sake of clarity, I have no idea at all who is responsible and neither does anyone on this thread, but I would wager good money on the likely aggressor nonetheless.

Perfectly fair answer. 

I wouldn't put it past either nation though with considering their histories. It was Radek Sikorski who tweeted "Thank you USA" and followed it up with the Biden video. 

I'm not saying I believe it. I just believe America is capable of it considering past controversy and scandals along with them being the major beneficiary and Putin doesn't NEED to destroy it. His maintenance claim was never going to be swallowed

But yes, Sikorski I think is or has gone on to imply its quite a suitable tactic to Russia. I'm not sure. He has commented in the past about USA's interference and "help" in Europe. At the same time he's commented on Russia's aggressive posturing. 

It beats "yawn". 

[JoetheRam]

Makes no sense for Russia to blow up their own pipeline that they already turned off, when it is key leverage against EU nations to me. 

Added to the Biden quote...

Don't think you need to be a David Icke acolyte to think this one looks a bit dodgy.

US main suspects in my eyes but we'll probably never know.

 

[Ramarena]

4 hours ago, Highgate said:

So, I'm sure to nobody's surprise Russian news agencies have announced that the 4 occupied regions of Ukraine (not including Crimea) have all opted to join Russia by massive margins in the recent referendums. 87% of those in Kherson, 93% in Zaporizhzhia, 98% in Luhansk and 99% of voters in Donetsk have opted to join Russia. 

Presumably this is the prelude to an official annexation by Russia, which the Kremlin says will result in a significant change in terms of international law (I didn't know Putin concerned himself with international law).  The Kremlin says Russia will then be justified in defending it's recently annexed territory by any means available.  

Putin must surely know that nobody outside Russia will believe these referendums were anything more than a stage managed farce.  So why even bother with them?  Possibly it's more for the domestic audience than anything else. 

One depressing result of the imminent annexations is that it seems there is no room for any sort of negotiation.  No agreement that Ukraine won't join NATO or future real referendums in Crimea and Donbas will suffice.  Russia is taking a big chunk of Ukraine and it won't leave unless they are driven out.   And what if Ukraine is successful, if they can somehow manage to push the Russian Army out of the newly annexed regions....what is Putin prepared to do to avoid personal and national humiliation? 

 

They don’t even make the results quasi believable.

Too high on their own imperialism and arrogance!