The Ukraine War

[Leeds Ram]

7 minutes ago, Alpha said:

I'm not saying you're wrong. But is there any reason that the destruction on a children's hospital is on purpose? 

I'm not defending the actions of Putin. I'm comparing it to the bombing of a hospital in Afghanistan and the drone strike on an aid worker surrounded by civilians though

Why is the hospital attack an intended war crime but many of the other instances an unfortunate error.

Trump revoked a law that meant the US do not have to publish the number of civilians killed in drone strikes. 

"The unearthing of these strikes in Syria came only months after the U.S. military admitted that a high-profile drone strike in Afghanistan last August killed ten civilians, including seven children—and not a suspected terrorist, as the Pentagon first claimed. And in December, the Times released a trove of Defense Department documents that reveal careless targeting, years of civilian deaths, and little accountability in Washington. Together, these events underscore that the U.S. military’s overall record on civilian harm is shameful. Many of these newly revealed strikes appear to be violations of the laws of armed conflict; others represent possible war crimes. Worse yet, many of the problems now coming to light are the same ones that Human Rights Watch, where I work now, and other groups have been documenting for years—to little avail." https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/01/25/lost-innocents#

 

Targeting hospitals and schools is a well-known tactic of the Russian military that has been used for years in Syria. So is similarly btw the use of 'ceasefires' that are broken and 'humanitarian corridors' that are really no such thing. 
 

 

To me, it's just comparing apples and oranges. Not disclosing drone strike data is bad (I think it should be disclosed) but does not indicate on its own war crimes have been committed or that deliberately bombing hospitals and schools are normal tactics of the United States military. The same goes for the aid worker, is there evidence the aid worker was deliberately known to be one and targeted because of that? If there is fair enough if there isn't then it's not a valid comparison. 

[Eddie]

47 minutes ago, Alpha said:

'm not saying you're wrong. But is there any reason that the destruction on a children's hospital is on purpose? 

It's called "Terrorism".

Just add that to the list of Putin's war crimes.

[jono]

7 hours ago, BaaLocks said:

That's Comrade Baalocks to you. To the other point on Facism, it feels a bit like Godwin's Law to me though I do agree that extreme right wing and extreme left wing often hit each other coming in the other direction.

And it might be worth noting that the Nazi party was the “National Socialist Party” 

So to all those who depict right and left wings in simplistic terms .. have another go. 

I’ve expressed my views over your analysis of Putin. I won’t repeat them as I’ll get another ban. 

There is no excuse or justification for his multiple actions over the last 10 / 15 years. ZERO.

If he didn’t have nukes he would be a side note in history. The West stands on its failings and successes in equal measure. For all its faults, it is on a different moral plain than that occupied by Putin. We have nukes because while Putin and the like exist, we have to. 

it is always possible in debate to pay lip service to an opponent in the hope of seeming reasonable. I don’t buy it, no matter how subtle anyone phrases or angles a discussion. 

 

 

 

[Ramarena]

2 hours ago, Alpha said:

This is nothing new to war unfortunately 

Kunduz hospital in Afghanistan was destroyed/liberated. 

Of course it doesn't justify any of it. But this is nothing new. It's just now we're being shown the human cost of war more than in previous years. 

I'm obviously not saying feck the Ukranian kids. 

But it goes back to a point made previously. When it's Western cities being leveled and civilians being killed you have far more care and concern from your average Joe. And the media is more interested in talking about the horrors of war. 

Spend some time looking into America's reckless behaviour in military campaigns. You'll see cover ups exposed too. Hellfire missiles killing an aid worker and civilians in a case of mistaken identity and drone strikes taking little to no consideration of the civilian losses

That's the cost of war. Even wars that some will say are for freedom and democracy. Necessary casualties? 

When Putin declared war on Ukraine he condemned innocent children and every day folk to death, homelessness and tragedy.

I can't justify that. 

But it's interesting to see how some look more now at the cost of war than ever before. I hope its something that people continue to do because the info is all out there if they want to go beyond western propaganda. 

I predict though that the general public will go back to thinking we're the good guys fighting the good fight and beyond our borders it's all wild barbarians. The wars across the globe are just filler for the ITV news at 10.

Will we put our leaders under such scrutiny? I doubt it. But we should. We absolutely should. Especially as we're the "free world" we should hold them to the highest standard. 

We won't because not enough of the general public care. And our leaders know that which is why you can tell most of them Putin is evil and they just eat it up. 

Maybe Putin is evil. I don't know or even care about judging him. Who gives a feck what I think. But I think people should try to gain much better understanding of the history and situation before they start broadcasting opinions over social media etc. Because social media is insanely powerful tool as much we mock it.

(Actually I don't think Putin is evil. Extremely dangerous idealist. Like Trump. Imagine Trump in power for 20 years.)

Indeed. I, like you and many others are more than happy to call out the west when they do the same. 

I don’t often go on protest marches, but made sure I did a bunch of times The Iraq/Afghanistan wars which were more about imperialism than “humanitarianism”.

However here we are now with this invasion………what’s come before isn’t all that relevant in the here and now. Then we have this sad atrocity at a children’s hospital, which needs highlighting and calling out.

One thing I will say is that this invasion (I won’t call it a war, as it’s not) is bit different in that the Russians have been indiscriminately shelling civilian areas with “dumb” munitions. It’s like we’ve gone back to WW2 style warfare, where you just level areas to try and advance. Civilians definitely seem like fair game across the board in this, that’s something that is definitely different from most modern western invasions.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Ramarena

[Rev]

Shout out to the Ukrainian suspended ceiling installers.

I've seen the walk through video from inside the targeted hospital, and despite the obvious carnage there doesn't appear to be a single ceiling damaged.

[jono]

13 minutes ago, Ramarena said:

Indeed. I, like you and many others are more than happy to call out the west when they do the same. 

I don’t often go on protest marches, but made sure I did a bunch of times The Iraq/Afghanistan wars which were more about imperialism than “humanitarianism”.

However here we are now with this invasion………what’s come before isn’t all that relevant in the here and now. Then we have this sad atrocity at a children’s hospital, which needs highlighting and calling out.

One thing I will say is that this invasion (I won’t call it a war, as it’s not) is bit different in that the Russians have been indiscriminately shelling civilian areas with “dumb” munitions. It’s like we’ve gone back to WW2 style warfare, where you just level areas to try and advance. Civilians definitely seem like fair game across the board in this, that’s something that is definitely different from most modern western invasions.

It’s a war. One nation invades another by force of arms. This isn’t an action trying to root out extremists who were attacking you . This is war. 
 

If it isn’t war on earth are you going to call it ? A special operation ? 
 

Were multiple organised Ukrainians or the Ukrainian state  involved in violence against Russia ? Did either invade their sovereign territory ? 
 

Russia didn’t like where it thought Ukrainian was going politically. So it crossed their border with soldiers, artillery and tanks and attacked the civilian population. That is called war. 

[Alph]

1 hour ago, Eddie said:

It's called "Terrorism".

Just add that to the list of Putin's war crimes.

Is it called terrorism when it's drone strikes in the Middle East? 

That's why I asked if there's any reason to believe it's not an accident

I don't actually want to believe Russia or America intend to kill any innocents. But I think you have to believe that they both accept collateral damage. You don't kill this amount of civilians by accident. 

You don't go into near 400 military conflicts without knowing the cost of war. 

It was a genuine question about the children's hospital. 

[Alph]

25 minutes ago, Ramarena said:

Indeed. I, like you and many others are more than happy to call out the west when they do the same. 

I don’t often go on protest marches, but made sure I did a bunch of times The Iraq/Afghanistan wars which were more about imperialism than “humanitarianism”.

However here we are now with this invasion………what’s come before isn’t all that relevant in the here and now. Then we have this sad atrocity at a children’s hospital, which needs highlighting and calling out.

One thing I will say is that this invasion (I won’t call it a war, as it’s not) is bit different in that the Russians have been indiscriminately shelling civilian areas with “dumb” munitions. It’s like we’ve gone back to WW2 style warfare, where you just level areas to try and advance. Civilians definitely seem like fair game across the board in this, that’s something that is definitely different from most modern western invasions.

Can't argue too much with that. I'm just genuinely not 100% sure they're targeting civilians. I'm not saying they're not. I'm just not sure why they would. They're certainly OK with civilians casualties while trying to destroy the Ukranian defence. 

They accuse Ukranians of hiding amongst civilians 

But yeah, the blood is on Putins hands regardless. 

Edited March 9, 2022 by Alpha

[Leeds Ram]

2 hours ago, Alpha said:

Why are you not surprised?

Because some have been posting those kinds of equivalences throughout this topic, conflating things that can't be conflated and either deliberately or accidentally posting the same stuff even once it's been corrected. 

[Alph]

8 minutes ago, jono said:

It’s a war. One nation invades another by force of arms. This isn’t an action trying to root out extremists who were attacking you . This is war. 
 

If it isn’t war on earth are you going to call it ? A special operation ? 
 

Were multiple organised Ukrainians or the Ukrainian state  involved in violence against Russia ? Did either invade their sovereign territory ? 
 

Russia didn’t like where it thought Ukrainian was going politically. So it crossed their border with soldiers, artillery and tanks and attacked the civilian population. That is called war. 

I think he means it's not a war as it's not a conflict Ukraine have a choice in.

It's an attack. Not even really an escalation. Although this has been bubbling for years and has been little surprise that we got here... how quick we got here did, I think, shock everyone. It was brought forward by weak Western leadership, Brexit, Covid etc that Putin seized his "chance". 

 

[Alph]

12 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

Because some have been posting those kinds of equivalences throughout this topic, conflating things that can't be conflated and either deliberately or accidentally posting the same stuff even once it's been corrected. 

I genuinely think you don't accept some opinions. 

The Iraq war was an unnecessary war. It was deemed unnecessary in an inquiry. It cost Iraq 13,000 civilian lives to Coalition forces at least. Anything north of 185,000 innocent people died. It was an invasion. 

You're opinion on whether America is right in the majority of its near 400 conflicts and proxy wars I can completely respect. I can happily agree to disagree. 

But being told its a fact that none of it has any correlation or relevance to this current atrocity being committed by Russia.... no. I don't feel I've been "corrected". 

You said you're in the minority on the Iraq war. Cool. You have reasons you believe it was the correct decision to go into that military conflicts. Cool. I disagree but Cool. 

You can't though decide that it's fact that America did the right thing and nobody can draw parallels to this war. 

There's war crimes committed in the name of freedom and democracy. As there are in this war in the name of freedom for voted independence of DPR, LPR and "de-nazification"

Doesn't matter what you do it in the name of. It matters what you do? A dead innocent child isn't acceptable whether they were killed by Russian bombs or American. 

[Eddie]

21 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Is it called terrorism when it's drone strikes in the Middle East? 

That's why I asked if there's any reason to believe it's not an accident

I don't actually want to believe Russia or America intend to kill any innocents. But I think you have to believe that they both accept collateral damage. You don't kill this amount of civilians by accident. 

You don't go into near 400 military conflicts without knowing the cost of war. 

It was a genuine question about the children's hospital. 

Good old whataboutism can always be relied on.

I'm not interested in debating the whys and wherefores. I leave that to those who claim to 'understand the reasons behind the conflict'.

[Leeds Ram]

47 minutes ago, Alpha said:

I genuinely think you don't accept some opinions. 

The Iraq war was an unnecessary war. It was deemed unnecessary in an inquiry. It cost Iraq 13,000 civilian lives to Coalition forces at least. Anything north of 185,000 innocent people died. It was an invasion. 

You're opinion on whether America is right in the majority of its near 400 conflicts and proxy wars I can completely respect. I can happily agree to disagree. 

But being told its a fact that none of it has any correlation or relevance to this current atrocity being committed by Russia.... no. I don't feel I've been "corrected". 

You said you're in the minority on the Iraq war. Cool. You have reasons you believe it was the correct decision to go into that military conflicts. Cool. I disagree but Cool. 

You can't though decide that it's fact that America did the right thing and nobody can draw parallels to this war. 

There's war crimes committed in the name of freedom and democracy. As there are in this war in the name of freedom for voted independence of DPR, LPR and "de-nazification"

Doesn't matter what you do it in the name of. It matters what you do? A dead innocent child isn't acceptable whether they were killed by Russian bombs or American. 

I don't accept that everything is a matter of opinion, there are such things as facts and there are some opinions that have no grounding in logic or reasonable assumptions which therefore are given less weight.  I have to judge arguments and regularly mark students' work which requires me to say certain opinions are poorly developed or argued, the logic is faulty and/or the evidence doesn't stack up. Sometimes, I have to say something is incorrect because sometimes some statements and views are simply flat out wrong.  I specifically corrected you on a list you made and gave details for why you were wrong on each claim, you just ignored it and began a similar line of argumentation later on in the thread. 

I don't believe it's right or balanced or fair-minded to compare the Russian annexation of a sovereign territory that they don't recognise and want to claim as their own whilst they deliberately targeting nurseries and hospitals with the invasion of Iraq. I don't believe that's fair-minded or nuanced but is the worst kind of pseudointellectual whataboutery masquerading as a mature opinion. You are entitled to hold it, and I am entitled to call it out and say I'm not surprised that the false equivalences are once again being delivered and crucial differences between events are being ignored. 

I don't believe your kind of consequentialism is helpful. There is massive moral difference between a deliberate attack on a hospital aimed to inspire terror and an accidental bombing of a hospital for instance. I simply asked for evidence for the American drone actions that what you claimed was deliberate as well, again you never responded directly but decided to post that I don't accept other opinions. Deliberately targeting a hospital is a tactic and that will happen again and again as it's a matter of policy and is constituted a war crime. An accidental attack that is conducted either because of bad intelligence or a weapon gone awry that is not a policy is not an equivalent action for me. 

Edited March 9, 2022 by Leeds Ram

[Ramarena]

1 hour ago, jono said:

It’s a war. One nation invades another by force of arms. This isn’t an action trying to root out extremists who were attacking you . This is war. 
 

If it isn’t war on earth are you going to call it ? A special operation ? 
 

Were multiple organised Ukrainians or the Ukrainian state  involved in violence against Russia ? Did either invade their sovereign territory ? 
 

Russia didn’t like where it thought Ukrainian was going politically. So it crossed their border with soldiers, artillery and tanks and attacked the civilian population. That is called war. 

I call it an invasion.

Ukraine didn’t want this and only went into battle to defend themselves and their land/country.

I personally see war more as an escalation between two willing sides, or when others nations join the fight to defend or attack another.

This is very one sided, Ukraine will not be launching attacks or counter offensives into Russia, they are pretty much solely fortifying against invasion and repelling those invaders!

 

[Ramarena]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

Can't argue too much with that. I'm just genuinely not 100% sure they're targeting civilians. I'm not saying they're not. I'm just not sure why they would. They're certainly OK with civilians casualties while trying to destroy the Ukranian defence. 

They accuse Ukranians of hiding amongst civilians 

But yeah, the blood is on Putins hands regardless. 

I think what I was trying to say on the civilian casualties, albeit very clumsily, is that western militaries have become incredibly sophisticated with their guided munitions these days.

Yes they are still implements of death and they can go wrong and kill civilians, but it’s a very different situation to what Russia are doing right now, which is just peppering civilian areas with a bunch of unguided munitions which land wherever they land and destroy whatever they hit.

[Alph]

1 hour ago, Eddie said:

Good old whataboutism can always be relied on.

I'm not interested in debating the whys and wherefores. I leave that to those who claim to 'understand the reasons behind the conflict'.

No, not "whataboutism" 

Nobody here is justifying the invasion. You've said that 4 times now and it's still not true. 

Putin has given reasons for invading Ukraine. I've not seen anybody agree that his reasons are good enough. For the 4th time. 

However, we have discussed IF his concerns actually have something behind them. And that is debatable. That doesn't mean if you recognise some of his concerns that you support his reaction. It doesn't. I know you'd like to pretend it does so you can come for a 5th time suggesting people are supporting his war. But it doesn't. 

Nato expansion is real. Proxy wars are real. And those are in discussion. 

On the Western side you have America that has 750 military bases in 80 countries. It has been in conflict for 91% of its existence and has been directly involved in almost 400 military conflicts. This threat, this expansion, this world power is entirely relevant to Putin's claims. It's not "whataboutism". It's relevant discussion to the thread. Otherwise the thread is nothing more than news updates you can get from BBC. 

You're not into debating other perspectives? Well it's a good job the people in power are because otherwise we'll be in WW3. There needs to be an understanding. 

When is a good time to mention the thousands upon thousands of civilians killed by America? When is a good time to bring up these war crimes? Never? Feck the Middle East? Feck the Palestinians humanitarian aid as USA sends billions to Israel? No, I'm sure you don't think like that. 

So, if you've witnessed the utter carnage brought upon people by American direct and indirect military conflicts then now, while people are in touch with the human cost of war, would be a good time to mention the Napalm strikes, Agent Orange, Atomic bombs, hospitals, schools, community centers bombed, the capture and torture of the likes of Abu Zubaydah, the drone strikes that kill only civilians.

Because we all agree this war in Ukraine is wrong. So there's little point to keep patting each other on the back in agreement. 

But does Putin raise some valid concerns? That is something we can discuss. And are doing until someone comes along pretending that if you say "yes" then you're loving Ukrainian kids being bombed. 

What do we do with our warmonger? We call him "sir"

100% if you felt double standards were being applied to you, you would question it. That's not whataboutism. That's understanding the rules we're playing by. 

So when Putin talks about liberating the Donbass republics who voted for independence and he talks about activity such as that by Azov Battallion... we call that ******** excuses. But when America goes to war in Vietnam then it's to fight for democracy and freedom. Nothing to do with fear of communist domino effect America feared and the controversial Gulf of Tonkin incident. 

America and Russia have opposed each other since the Dinosaurs. They oppose each other in conflicts all across the globe over the decades. They're enemies. It's surely all relevant? The Cuban Missile Crisis is relevant. You say whataboutism... yes, West and East have been playing this game forever. It's all relevant. 

Russia can not allow enemies to infiltrate Ukraine any more than America can allow it in Cuba or Vietnam. 

And I still think invading Ukraine was insane. But we will all understand WHY he did it. Because Ukraine will be neutral, it won't be Nato, DPR and LPR will be annexed/become Russia. Crimea too. It will be controversial. But that's the why. 

Is it Russia's Vietnam? I dunno. I'm not smart enough to answer 

[Highgate]

5 hours ago, Leeds Ram said:

I'm not surprised some people can't tell the difference between an error in combat operations such as mistaken identity (which does happen unfortunately and probably cannot be completely prevented) and the deliberate destruction of hospitals and schools resulting in the murder of civilians constituting a war crime. This is nothing new to the Russians, they've been doing the same in Syria for years, similar to the 'ceasefires' that they then break and the 'humanitarian corridors' that are no such thing. 

I think you are letting the US off lightly.  Didn't they deliberately bomb Al Jazeera in Kabul, as it continued to report on the American bombing campaign? A fairly obvious war-crime.  Also their practice of 'signature drone strikes', thousands of which has been carried out for more than a decade is morally questionable to say the least. They quite often don't even know the identity of the targets....they are just.rolling the dice and hoping the target are terrorists. That's hard to justify. 

Again, none of which exonerates Putin, whose bombing campaign in Syria was ruthless and despicable and whose actions in Ukraine are utterly indefensible in my view.  What I don't understand is why bomb hospitals in Ukraine?  In Syria, the sad fact is he felt he could do that with impunity...he wasn't trying to unify Russia and Syria he was merely trying to help out an important ally in Assad.  In Ukraine, he talks about Russians and Ukrainians being one nation, somewhat deluded I know but that appears to be his genuine opinion.  How on Earth does he think bombing hospitals or civilians in general, whether deliberately or as a result of indiscriminate bombing, is going to 'win hearts and minds' in Ukraine?  It doesn't add up. 

 

[Alph]

1 hour ago, Leeds Ram said:

I don't accept that everything is a matter of opinion, there are such things as facts and there are some opinions that have no grounding in logic or reasonable assumptions which therefore are given less weight.  I have to judge arguments and regularly mark students' work which requires me to say certain opinions are poorly developed or argued, the logic is faulty and/or the evidence doesn't stack up. Sometimes, I have to say something is incorrect because sometimes some statements and views are simply flat out wrong.  I specifically corrected you on a list you made and gave details for why you were wrong on each claim, you just ignored it and began a similar line of argumentation later on in the thread. 

I don't believe it's right or balanced or fair-minded to compare the Russian annexation of a sovereign territory that they don't recognise and want to claim as their own whilst they deliberately targeting nurseries and hospitals with the invasion of Iraq. I don't believe that's fair-minded or nuanced but is the worst kind of pseudointellectual whataboutery masquerading as a mature opinion. You are entitled to hold it, and I am entitled to call it out and say I'm not surprised that the false equivalences are once again being delivered and crucial differences between events are being ignored. 

I don't believe your kind of consequentialism is helpful. There is massive moral difference between a deliberate attack on a hospital aimed to inspire terror and an accidental bombing of a hospital for instance. I simply asked for evidence for the American drone actions that what you claimed was deliberate as well, again you never responded directly but decided to post that I don't accept other opinions. Deliberately targeting a hospital is a tactic and that will happen again and again as it's a matter of policy and is constituted a war crime. An accidental attack that is conducted either because of bad intelligence or a weapon gone awry that is not a policy is not an equivalent action for me. 

The list I gave was a list of military conflicts USA has directly been involved in since WW2. I said some of them have fair reasons directly underneath the list. Some, like Iraq, do not. 

I don't support Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Never have. I do however understand why Putin sees threats to Russian security. That's doesn't justify a war. Just like Blair and Bush had no justification for the Iraq war. 

His disregard for civilian life is sickening. But you're choosing to say he's purposely targeting hospitals. I'm not sure if he is, but for arguments sake I'll go with it. 

But then you're saying that's different from American weapons gone awry. From accidental civilian deaths

I agree. 100%

But I don't think you can call civilian deaths accidental if they're targeted strikes at a hospital, believed without proof, that Taliban fighters are being treated there along with children and civilians. That's not an accident. That's collateral damage. And they acted on that without proof and killed only civilians. 

The same with the aid worker. They had bad intel. They acted on bad Intel. And again, collateral damage. 

America is absolutely no stranger to war crimes. You can find any number of them and the huge criticism internationally at America's attempt to cover them up.

So yes, I accept weapons gone awry is unfortunate. But there are hundreds of instances made public by the New York Times that shows an absolute blatant disregard for civilians in it's military strikes

It's comparable because we aren't talking about accidental deaths. 

As for the whataboutism. I addressed into my response to Eddie.

I do understand the "whataboutism" when it comes to what happens during war. We are going off topic on that and bringing up a hospital in Kabul after todays tragedy is insensitive. The point I made and the only point I wished to make was that "this is war" and I hope we hold our own leaders up to such scrutiny. 

Because as a pro Palestinian supporter and with a general interest in the Middle East conflicts I've seen all these tragedies/conflicts unfold without international condemnation on anything like this level. So, I admit there's a part of me that is "well what about when..." 

But our world doesn't really stop to talk about any of this. So while Putin is pointing the finger at American aggression in the world then I felt that it is worth bringing it up.

Obviously he's doing it to justify his war. That's the problem 

[rammieib]

We’re at around 1200 reported war crimes now in Ukraine.

We have seen images/videos whether it’s shelling on a hospital unit, tanks just shooting indiscriminately on cars posing zero threat, shelling on women and children in humanitarian corridors trying to escape or just bombs landing in houses in the middle of a residential area. How much more evidence is required?

Im at the point now where we should be going in and supporting Ukraine. We should be staying we are defending Ukraine from attackers. We won’t go into another country and we won’t attack anyone in Russia. We can call it a ‘special operation’. This to me means troops and planes.

This whole thing reminds me off the story whereby an individual was stuck on a roof with flood waters around him. A swimmer comes up to him and says I’ll rescue you, and he says, don’t worry, god will rescue me. Next a boat comes up to him and says, get in we will reduce you, and he says, don’t worry god will rescue me. Finally a helicopter comes and says, get in, and he again says, don’t worry god will rescue me. Very soon he drowns and on entering heaven he says to god “why didn’t you rescue me” and god says “I tried to, I sent a swimmer, a boat and a helicopter”

My point, we’ve now attacks on nuclear plants, attacks on humanitarian corridors and now an attack on a hospital/maternal unit. Very soon, it’ll be too late.

My heart breaks.

[Bob The Badger]

8 hours ago, Alpha said:

No, not "whataboutism" 

Nobody here is justifying the invasion. You've said that 4 times now and it's still not true. 

Putin has given reasons for invading Ukraine. I've not seen anybody agree that his reasons are good enough. For the 4th time. 

However, we have discussed IF his concerns actually have something behind them. And that is debatable. That doesn't mean if you recognise some of his concerns that you support his reaction. It doesn't. I know you'd like to pretend it does so you can come for a 5th time suggesting people are supporting his war. But it doesn't. 

Nato expansion is real. Proxy wars are real. And those are in discussion. 

On the Western side you have America that has 750 military bases in 80 countries. It has been in conflict for 91% of its existence and has been directly involved in almost 400 military conflicts. This threat, this expansion, this world power is entirely relevant to Putin's claims. It's not "whataboutism". It's relevant discussion to the thread. Otherwise the thread is nothing more than news updates you can get from BBC. 

You're not into debating other perspectives? Well it's a good job the people in power are because otherwise we'll be in WW3. There needs to be an understanding. 

When is a good time to mention the thousands upon thousands of civilians killed by America? When is a good time to bring up these war crimes? Never? Feck the Middle East? Feck the Palestinians humanitarian aid as USA sends billions to Israel? No, I'm sure you don't think like that. 

So, if you've witnessed the utter carnage brought upon people by American direct and indirect military conflicts then now, while people are in touch with the human cost of war, would be a good time to mention the Napalm strikes, Agent Orange, Atomic bombs, hospitals, schools, community centers bombed, the capture and torture of the likes of Abu Zubaydah, the drone strikes that kill only civilians.

Because we all agree this war in Ukraine is wrong. So there's little point to keep patting each other on the back in agreement. 

But does Putin raise some valid concerns? That is something we can discuss. And are doing until someone comes along pretending that if you say "yes" then you're loving Ukrainian kids being bombed. 

What do we do with our warmonger? We call him "sir"

100% if you felt double standards were being applied to you, you would question it. That's not whataboutism. That's understanding the rules we're playing by. 

So when Putin talks about liberating the Donbass republics who voted for independence and he talks about activity such as that by Azov Battallion... we call that ******** excuses. But when America goes to war in Vietnam then it's to fight for democracy and freedom. Nothing to do with fear of communist domino effect America feared and the controversial Gulf of Tonkin incident. 

America and Russia have opposed each other since the Dinosaurs. They oppose each other in conflicts all across the globe over the decades. They're enemies. It's surely all relevant? The Cuban Missile Crisis is relevant. You say whataboutism... yes, West and East have been playing this game forever. It's all relevant. 

Russia can not allow enemies to infiltrate Ukraine any more than America can allow it in Cuba or Vietnam. 

And I still think invading Ukraine was insane. But we will all understand WHY he did it. Because Ukraine will be neutral, it won't be Nato, DPR and LPR will be annexed/become Russia. Crimea too. It will be controversial. But that's the why. 

Is it Russia's Vietnam? I dunno. I'm not smart enough to answer 

That's a very thoughtful and considered post mate.

A couple of years ago Bernie Sanders the independent Senator from Vermont and enemy of the far right pointed out that Fidel Castro had done some good things in Cuba.

He may as well have said he liked to fondle small barnyard animals because everything after that was drowned out by the apoplectic outrage from not just the Republicans but the moderate Dems and of course, all the exiled Cubans too.

The reality is that Cuba under Castro raised the level of education and healthcare to become the best at both in the Caribbean, which I think we can all agree is a good thing no matter what else he did.

People like binary choices because they are easy.

On a scale of 0 to 10 when it comes to the disregard for human life when it comes to his own interests, Putin is doing a Spinal Tap and is sat at 11 But we and the Americans are a LOT closer to 10 than 0.