The Ukraine War

[Tamworthram]

1 hour ago, BaaLocks said:

This link has been shown blanket on Russian television. I guess we all understand she was wary of getting caught in the same trap as Corbyn was when asked the same question. But her handling of it, and the response from the audience, are just another example (along with her comments about Macron) that we are about to enter the most dangerous of times with the most stupid of leaders at the helm. And one that thinks success is appealing to the very worst of the most extreme of her supposed supporters.

She is a serial offender, from her teenage performances at Lib Dem conferences, of saying anything as long as she thinks it is what people want to hear. But when she is perceived to speak for a nation that becomes very, very worrying.

 

I don’t relish Truss as PM and I think her comment about Macron was clumsy to put it mildly but, she is (I hope) just saying certain things to appeal to the Tory leader electorate.
 

I wouldn’t read anything into this clip. She’s hardly likely to say she wouldn’t do it is she? She could have said it would also make her feel uncomfortable or sick (you’d like to think it would make any sane person feel sick to have to press the button if it came to it) but if she’d said it then she may have thought that was a sign of weakness and she’s not ready to be PM. I’m pretty certain that if he’d probed a bit further and said something like “I understand that you’re ready for that responsibility but how would you feel about having to press the the button?” then she would have expressed a bit more emotion.

I don’t think she’s stupid (as I say, clumsy maybe and playing to the audience a bit). You also have to take into account she is being presented with an extreme and devastating scenario that we all hope we never face and if, you listen carefully, she didn’t really answer the question (shock, horror). She pretty much said having to make that decision or give that order (under those specific circumstances) is an important decision for the PM and she’s ready for that responsibility.

[BaaLocks]

On 27/06/2022 at 17:11, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

The sanctions must be hurting him.

Pretty much the opposite, it's hardening Russian sentiment towards the West and providing considerable opportunity for neighbouring countries (Turkey in particular) to benefit in multiple ways - which then causes them in turn to pick their partners.

One indicator is currency, here's how the Russian Rouble has reacted (against USD) to events:

And here's how sterling has compared over the same period

To quote CNBC on why this is happening they say "The reasons are, to put it simply: strikingly high energy prices, capital controls and sanctions themselves." To be fair, there are many that say this isn't a true indicator of how the Russian economy is fairing, but it certainly is an indicator that many are pointing to in order to suggest that sanctions really aren't working.

[BaaLocks]

3 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

I don’t think she’s stupid

In the last few weeks (remembering she is actually Foreign Secretary at the time of writing) she has said the jurys out on Macron, that she thinks Sturgeon should be ignored, that British workers are lazy, not knowing that areas of Ukraine under attack are actually part of Russia, encouraging general public to go fight in Ukraine, saying she will not appoint an ethics advisor if she is PM, that she was misquoted in her own speech. And all this without even taking time to note she was a Remainer, Lib Dem, argued for the abolition of the monarchy (and we won't even go to pork markets and the like).

Look, I'm not trying to get off thread here - the point I am making is that if we take your definition of her as clumsy even that leaves us in a really difficult place when she is the one who is supposedly directing one of the major world powers in these most delicate of times. We can all pull up quotes of MPs saying silly things, nothing new there, but this one is about to become our Prime Minister. That, to me, is very worrying indeed.

[Tamworthram]

17 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

In the last few weeks (remembering she is actually Foreign Secretary at the time of writing) she has said the jurys out on Macron, that she thinks Sturgeon should be ignored, that British workers are lazy, not knowing that areas of Ukraine under attack are actually part of Russia, encouraging general public to go fight in Ukraine, saying she will not appoint an ethics advisor if she is PM, that she was misquoted in her own speech. And all this without even taking time to note she was a Remainer, Lib Dem, argued for the abolition of the monarchy (and we won't even go to pork markets and the like).

Look, I'm not trying to get off thread here - the point I am making is that if we take your definition of her as clumsy even that leaves us in a really difficult place when she is the one who is supposedly directing one of the major world powers in these most delicate of times. We can all pull up quotes of MPs saying silly things, nothing new there, but this one is about to become our Prime Minister. That, to me, is very worrying indeed.

Fair enough but, to refer back to the clip you posted, she provided an answer that didn’t answer the question posed (as pretty much all politicians do) and said “it’s an important duty of the PM and I’m ready to do that” when presented with a stark and an almost unimaginable scenario. 
 

I honestly think that if you interpret this clip as meaning she happy to authorise a nuclear attack unless she was faced with a such a scenario then you’re reading reading it wrong. I would think pretty much any leader (or wannabe leader) of a nation with nuclear weapons at their disposal would also have said that, if with faced with it, they would be prepared to make the decision. I’m sure that if he had asked her “would you actually press the button?” She would have said (or at least meant to say) it would depend on the specific circumstances.

[Crewton]

52 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

Pretty much the opposite, it's hardening Russian sentiment towards the West and providing considerable opportunity for neighbouring countries (Turkey in particular) to benefit in multiple ways - which then causes them in turn to pick their partners.

One indicator is currency, here's how the Russian Rouble has reacted (against USD) to events:

And here's how sterling has compared over the same period

To quote CNBC on why this is happening they say "The reasons are, to put it simply: strikingly high energy prices, capital controls and sanctions themselves." To be fair, there are many that say this isn't a true indicator of how the Russian economy is fairing, but it certainly is an indicator that many are pointing to in order to suggest that sanctions really aren't working.

Full sanctions haven't kicked in yet though. It's early days in that respect. Yes, there are dangers in isolating the population, but the alternative is that their lives carry on as normal and that isn't really an option either because doing nothing about Donbass and Crimea for 8 years simply emboldened Putin and allowed him to push his new Russian Empire strategy as entirely positive.

[Ram-Alf]

1 hour ago, BaaLocks said:

In the last few weeks (remembering she is actually Foreign Secretary at the time of writing) she has said the jurys out on Macron, that she thinks Sturgeon should be ignored, that British workers are lazy, not knowing that areas of Ukraine under attack are actually part of Russia, encouraging general public to go fight in Ukraine, saying she will not appoint an ethics advisor if she is PM, that she was misquoted in her own speech. And all this without even taking time to note she was a Remainer, Lib Dem, argued for the abolition of the monarchy (and we won't even go to pork markets and the like).

Look, I'm not trying to get off thread here - the point I am making is that if we take your definition of her as clumsy even that leaves us in a really difficult place when she is the one who is supposedly directing one of the major world powers in these most delicate of times. We can all pull up quotes of MPs saying silly things, nothing new there, but this one is about to become our Prime Minister. That, to me, is very worrying indeed.

BJ was a tool and a fool, His antics made him look what he is...incompetent, But he could talk to other World leaders, LT on the other hand is in it for herself...imo, Power goes to the head, A name in the history books, Own security, World travel on an epic scale, To have her speak for the British public is dangerous, She'll get the vote from her electorate I reckon, As they are in the main old and white, RS has not been on the scene long enough for me, He comes across as very savvy where £££s are concerned and could be on a par with other World leaders...I fear LT will get in...there's gonna be trouble ahead ? 

[Alph]

1 hour ago, Tamworthram said:

I don’t relish Truss as PM and I think her comment about Macron was clumsy to put it mildly but, she is (I hope) just saying certain things to appeal to the Tory leader electorate.
 

I wouldn’t read anything into this clip. She’s hardly likely to say she wouldn’t do it is she? She could have said it would also make her feel uncomfortable or sick (you’d like to think it would make any sane person feel sick to have to press the button if it came to it) but if she’d said it then she may have thought that was a sign of weakness and she’s not ready to be PM. I’m pretty certain that if he’d probed a bit further and said something like “I understand that you’re ready for that responsibility but how would you feel about having to press the the button?” then she would have expressed a bit more emotion.

I don’t think she’s stupid (as I say, clumsy maybe and playing to the audience a bit). You also have to take into account she is being presented with an extreme and devastating scenario that we all hope we never face and if, you listen carefully, she didn’t really answer the question (shock, horror). She pretty much said having to make that decision or give that order (under those specific circumstances) is an important decision for the PM and she’s ready for that responsibility.

I think clumsy is letting her off lightly. 

Just like Trump, her clumsy quotes will be used by enemies. They'll be damaging. As they already have been with Northern Ireland, Russia and France. 

If she's not stupid then those quotes aren't clumsy but they're her trying to appear strong, resolute and all the things she thinks a leader should be. 

If she isn't stupid then she says that firing nuclear weapons is something that shouldn't even be talked about in theory. 

Just like she shouldn't have clumsily told people to go to Ukraine. Just like she shouldn't have made vague threats about Nuclear weapons that provided Russia some headlines. 

Just like Donald drink bleach, build a wall, Jerusalem is capital of Israel Trump was unchecked when it came to opening his mouth. She's as bad.

We don't need someone clumsy in power while we have to rebuild relationships and have Russia and China acting aggressively. 

[BaaLocks]

1 hour ago, Crewton said:

Full sanctions haven't kicked in yet though. It's early days in that respect. Yes, there are dangers in isolating the population, but the alternative is that their lives carry on as normal and that isn't really an option either because doing nothing about Donbass and Crimea for 8 years simply emboldened Putin and allowed him to push his new Russian Empire strategy as entirely positive.

Full sanctions won't kick in because we (the West) still need much that Russia provides. For example, rare earth metals are exempt from sanctions because we need cadmium, nickel and cobalt.

As for Donbass and Crimea, the view that we are being given in the West is that they are being stripped away from the sovereign state of Ukraine. Sadly, that view is not one that is universally held. Russia - and others - believe that these areas are actually Russian and were stripped away from the state of Russia in 1991.

As I have tried to say throughout this thread - I don't get to say whether they are right or wrong (even though it appears so many seems concrete in their resolution that this is the action of a madman without any rational justification) but  it certainly is not an utterly black and white conclusion that these lands are Ukranian now because they always have been and always should be. And as a nation that has it's own share of sovereignty disputes (Gibraltar, Falklands, Diego Garcia) I think the least we as Brits can reasonably agree on is that these issues are seldom as simple as 'finders keepers'.

[BaaLocks]

1 hour ago, Tamworthram said:

I honestly think that if you interpret this clip as meaning she happy to authorise a nuclear attack unless she was faced with a such a scenario then you’re reading reading it wrong.

I'm not saying that, I'm saying - as you - she is clumsy and inept in her skills of diplomacy. Her desire is to appeal to those who she wants to vote for her, at all costs, and she values the applause of the audience above anything else. I don't think she wants to blow us all up, I do think she's now given Russian media (yet another) cast iron soundbite that sounds like she does and the appreciation from the galleries simply makes it look like we all feel that way also.

[Crewton]

17 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

Full sanctions won't kick in because we (the West) still need much that Russia provides. For example, rare earth metals are exempt from sanctions because we need cadmium, nickel and cobalt.

As for Donbass and Crimea, the view that we are being given in the West is that they are being stripped away from the sovereign state of Ukraine. Sadly, that view is not one that is universally held. Russia - and others - believe that these areas are actually Russian and were stripped away from the state of Russia in 1991.

As I have tried to say throughout this thread - I don't get to say whether they are right or wrong (even though it appears so many seems concrete in their resolution that this is the action of a madman without any rational justification) but  it certainly is not an utterly black and white conclusion that these lands are Ukranian now because they always have been and always should be. And as a nation that has it's own share of sovereignty disputes (Gibraltar, Falklands, Diego Garcia) I think the least we as Brits can reasonably agree on is that these issues are seldom as simple as 'finders keepers'.

All the Ukrainian SSR did was declare independence based on its existing borders. The referendum a few months later was carried by a majority in all Oblasts, including Eastern Ukraine and Crimea. The Ukrainian SSR was one of the original members of the United Nations and remained so until it became independent. It's a lawfully constituted independent Republic. If parts of the country wished to secede, they should have followed the paths recognised by international law and Putin should have kept his nose out. 

Those who argue that parts of Ukraine should be part of Russia have a poor grasp of both history and international law. 

[Tamworthram]

1 hour ago, BaaLocks said:

I'm not saying that, I'm saying - as you - she is clumsy and inept in her skills of diplomacy. Her desire is to appeal to those who she wants to vote for her, at all costs, and she values the applause of the audience above anything else. I don't think she wants to blow us all up, I do think she's now given Russian media (yet another) cast iron soundbite that sounds like she does and the appreciation from the galleries simply makes it look like we all feel that way also.

OK but I still think you're interpreting her comments incorrectly (IMO) when you say it's another example of her stupidity and how dangerous things are under her. She said what I think every leader would say I.e. she's prepared to take responsibility for making that decision. 

She didn't answer the question asked but then politicians often don't and some intererviewers let them off lightly rather than trying to get the answer.

Make no mistake, I'm no Truss fan but I think her responses to this specific question has been distorted a little.

[Alph]

Her response should have been firstly, let's pray we never ever are in that position. To be in that position means diplomacy has utterly failed. Lines of communication are utterly broken and there are no other options. 

And secondly that it's hard to comprehend the massive loss to human and civilian life never mind the aftermath. 

But instead she's like I'll do what I have to. 

She's a feckin loon. 

People took her up on her saying go to Ukraine. They got captured. I think two of them are dead? 

She should shut up. Northern Ireland, Russia and France before she's even sat in the big chair. 

 

 

 

 

[Van der MoodHoover]

Liz Truss is a toxic combination of hyper ambition, high output and wide-ranging incompetence..... 

[AndyinLiverpool]

3 hours ago, Alpha said:

Her response should have been firstly, let's pray we never ever are in that position. To be in that position means diplomacy has utterly failed. Lines of communication are utterly broken and there are no other options. 

And secondly that it's hard to comprehend the massive loss to human and civilian life never mind the aftermath. 

But instead she's like I'll do what I have to. 

She's a feckin loon. 

People took her up on her saying go to Ukraine. They got captured. I think two of them are dead? 

She should shut up. Northern Ireland, Russia and France before she's even sat in the big chair. 

 

 

 

 

Scotland too. Their First Minister should be ignored, apparently.

 

[Archied]

10 hours ago, BaaLocks said:

In the last few weeks (remembering she is actually Foreign Secretary at the time of writing) she has said the jurys out on Macron, that she thinks Sturgeon should be ignored, that British workers are lazy, not knowing that areas of Ukraine under attack are actually part of Russia, encouraging general public to go fight in Ukraine, saying she will not appoint an ethics advisor if she is PM, that she was misquoted in her own speech. And all this without even taking time to note she was a Remainer, Lib Dem, argued for the abolition of the monarchy (and we won't even go to pork markets and the like).

Look, I'm not trying to get off thread here - the point I am making is that if we take your definition of her as clumsy even that leaves us in a really difficult place when she is the one who is supposedly directing one of the major world powers in these most delicate of times. We can all pull up quotes of MPs saying silly things, nothing new there, but this one is about to become our Prime Minister. That, to me, is very worrying indeed.

No more. Worrying than boris , no more worrying than Blair,,,, they are all a ducking worry to me no matter what colour rosette 

[BaaLocks]

6 hours ago, Alpha said:

Her response should have been firstly, let's pray we never ever are in that position. To be in that position means diplomacy has utterly failed. Lines of communication are utterly broken and there are no other options. 

And secondly that it's hard to comprehend the massive loss to human and civilian life never mind the aftermath.

Alpha for PM.

[BaaLocks]

8 hours ago, Crewton said:

Those who argue that parts of Ukraine should be part of Russia have a poor grasp of both history and international law. 

Jimmy Wales thanks you for your patronage. I did this about thirty pages back in this thread, I simply can't be harrised to do it all over again. Believe what you want, it makes no difference to the outcome what either you or I think.

[Crewton]

27 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

Jimmy Wales thanks you for your patronage. I did this about thirty pages back in this thread, I simply can't be harrised to do it all over again. Believe what you want, it makes no difference to the outcome what either you or I think.

Well, that's a pathetic response. You could simply have put a link back to your brilliant academic work in your reply. What are you afraid of? 

[BaaLocks]

4 minutes ago, Crewton said:

Well, that's a pathetic response. You could simply have put a link back to your brilliant academic work in your reply. What are you afraid of? 

Spiders, especially those ones with big, furry legs. Not sure what that's got to do with the thread but you asked.

[Crewton]

3 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

Spiders, especially those ones with big, furry legs. Not sure what that's got to do with the thread but you asked.

Figures.