CornwallRam Posted February 27, 2022 Share Posted February 27, 2022 (edited) 14 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: What is this based on? Your HMRC calculations have been questioned already? Not sure I understand your point Roy? All the evidence points to us owing just under £30m to HMRC and there's about £10m of unsecured debt, but my understanding is that about £2m of that is actually football debt, so will need to be settled in full if we're to remain in the EFL. Obviously these are ball park figures - how could they be anything other without seeing the current books? Edited February 27, 2022 by CornwallRam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted February 27, 2022 Share Posted February 27, 2022 1 minute ago, CornwallRam said: Not sure I understand your point Roy? All the evidence points to us owing just under £30m to HMRC and there's about £10m of unsecured debt, but my understanding is that about £2m of that is actually football debt, so will need to be settled in full if we're to remain in the EFL. Obviously these are ball park figures - how could they be anything other without seeing the current books? I can follow the post below... 16 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said: As I understand the cram-down thing, the point is to avoid paying creditors that wouldn't receive anything anyway if we were liquidated. So I don't see how HMRC affects that at all - they're the biggest single unsecured creditor. Any cramming down would be on the smaller creditors, and would be dependant on us having an agreement with HMRC in place. Either HMRC are going to agree some percentage with a new buyer, or we get liquidated. There is no middle ground here. So we're back on @PistoldPete's point, that there's no point in a new buyer losing 15 points over maybe a couple of million. I don't get your point mate. #coyr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CornwallRam Posted February 27, 2022 Share Posted February 27, 2022 15 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said: I'm not sure this is right at all (I'm not an expert etc, so fully prepared to admit I'm wrong here)... The requirement for a CVA has apparently been dropped from the EFL insolvency policy (https://www.lawinsport.com/topics/features/item/football-creditors-rule-is-the-football-league-s-new-insolvency-policy-a-step-in-the-right-direction). There's nothing stopping us using some kind of restructuring plan now, with just the requirements on minimum percentages paid etc. The issue with 'Boro wasn't that we weren't allowed to cram down as such, it was that we were using it to squash what the EFL deemed to be a potential football debt out of existence. As I understand the cram-down thing, the point is to avoid paying creditors that wouldn't receive anything anyway if we were liquidated. So I don't see how HMRC affects that at all - they're the biggest single unsecured creditor. Any cramming down would be on the smaller creditors, and would be dependant on us having an agreement with HMRC in place. Either HMRC are going to agree some percentage with a new buyer, or we get liquidated. There is no middle ground here. So we're back on @PistoldPete's point, that there's no point in a new buyer losing 15 points over maybe a couple of million. I don't think you're correct here. The point of the cram down is that it removes the distinction between creditors. Consequently, HMRC have to accept what the court agree to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mucker1884 Posted February 27, 2022 Share Posted February 27, 2022 1 hour ago, IslandExile said: I'm currently reading Jim Smith's autobiography - highly recommended... I know he's a legend and all that... and rightly so... But that's a really crap title for an autobiography! Mostyn6, Ram-Alf and IslandExile 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram-Alf Posted February 27, 2022 Share Posted February 27, 2022 1 minute ago, Mucker1884 said: I know he's a legend and all that... and rightly so... But that's a really crap title for an autobiography! A Narcissists self promotion ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanjwitham Posted February 27, 2022 Share Posted February 27, 2022 5 minutes ago, CornwallRam said: I don't think you're correct here. The point of the cram down is that it removes the distinction between creditors. Consequently, HMRC have to accept what the court agree to. I'm going from what's on here: https://www.mayerbrown.com/en/perspectives-events/publications/2021/05/developments-in-restructuring-plans-and-cross-class-cram-down-virgin-active#:~:text=Part 26A of the Companies Act 2006 allows the Court,class cram down mechanism"). You can't cram HMRC down, because they alone represent more than 75% of the 'value' in their class. The way a cram down would apply to our case is if we got HMRC to agree to something, but that was being scuppered by one of the tiny creditors demanding more than HMRC was getting. So we could get a court to agree that that creditor wouldn't get more than the e.g. 25% we'd offered them if we were liquidated, and force the restructure through regardless of their objection. What it wouldn't do is allow the administrators to get a court to force HMRC to accept less. CornwallRam 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atherstoneram Posted February 27, 2022 Share Posted February 27, 2022 3 hours ago, PistoldPete said: Its true that Q may say they have been dealt a bum hand. But they had also said they expect there to be no penalties, so even by their own measure they will have failed if there are any penalties. And actually I don't think there will be any, it's Nixon after all, didn't he tell us Ashley had pulled out? They won't have failed if we get additional penalties,the bidders obviously are not prepared to offer enough to cover 25% of the debt,whether creditors will accept what is offered is a different matter, it's not a given that they will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atherstoneram Posted February 27, 2022 Share Posted February 27, 2022 1 hour ago, IslandExile said: These business people appear to buy clubs for different reasons. Some are genuine supporters; some want to put something back to the local community; some see it as a business opportunity - building up a club to sell it on or to fleece its revenue stream. I fear Ashley, because of his core business, wants to be involved in sport and, essentially, to have the advertising space. The (only?) positive for us is that those adverts would get more exposure if the club was in the Premier League. He also did well out of the Newcastle sale. Won't get much exposure in L1. jimtastic56 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoldPete Posted February 27, 2022 Share Posted February 27, 2022 17 minutes ago, atherstoneram said: They won't have failed if we get additional penalties,the bidders obviously are not prepared to offer enough to cover 25% of the debt,whether creditors will accept what is offered is a different matter, it's not a given that they will. "the bidders obviously are not prepared to offer enough to cover 25% of the debt"? Really? You do realise the article is in the Sun, so hardly reliable. And even that says : "The Rams may only be able to offer less than the standard 25p in the pound to creditors". So pretty meaningless speculation I think. kevinhectoring 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atherstoneram Posted February 27, 2022 Share Posted February 27, 2022 29 minutes ago, CornwallRam said: I don't think you're correct here. The point of the cram down is that it removes the distinction between creditors. Consequently, HMRC have to accept what the court agree to. Yes but HMRC can be represented in court to say they will not accept that and will proceed to issue a winding up order. We don't know whether the HMRC offered an agreement to pay with MM which he refused or renaged on. They won't just roll over and accept what they are offered as much as some people keep using the ethos that something is better than nothing. jimtastic56 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B4ev6is Posted February 27, 2022 Share Posted February 27, 2022 Look I am sure that will get it paid and be no more statections towards the club and appently mike ashley is getting closer to taking over the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atherstoneram Posted February 27, 2022 Share Posted February 27, 2022 2 minutes ago, PistoldPete said: "the bidders obviously are not prepared to offer enough to cover 25% of the debt"? Really? You do realise the article is in the Sun, so hardly reliable. And even that says : "The Rams may only be able to offer less than the standard 25p in the pound to creditors". 3 minutes ago, PistoldPete said: "the bidders obviously are not prepared to offer enough to cover 25% of the debt"? Really? You do realise the article is in the Sun, so hardly reliable. And even that says : "The Rams may only be able to offer less than the standard 25p in the pound to creditors". So pretty meaningless speculation I think. So pretty meaningless speculation I think. No more meaningless speculation than you keep saying HMRC will accept what is offered. jimtastic56 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thameram Posted February 27, 2022 Share Posted February 27, 2022 We need to build the club again slowly from top to bottom with a sensible plan mike ashley would be the ideal man,wayne rooney the ideal manager its up to the admins to make that happen don't listen to nixon's bull Derby4Me, Carnero, Kathcairns and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CornwallRam Posted February 27, 2022 Share Posted February 27, 2022 (edited) 18 minutes ago, atherstoneram said: Yes but HMRC can be represented in court to say they will not accept that and will proceed to issue a winding up order. We don't know whether the HMRC offered an agreement to pay with MM which he refused or renaged on. They won't just roll over and accept what they are offered as much as some people keep using the ethos that something is better than nothing. They can't issue a winding up order if we exit via a restructuring plan because the existing company would be wound up anyway. The club would be owned by a new company which would not owe HMRC a penny. Edited February 27, 2022 by CornwallRam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoldPete Posted February 27, 2022 Share Posted February 27, 2022 4 minutes ago, atherstoneram said: No more meaningless speculation than you keep saying HMRC will accept what is offered. I haven't speculated any such thing. Only that it is in the interests of any creditor to accept something that is better than nothing. And the admin team are trying to get the best deal they can, why wouldn't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atherstoneram Posted February 27, 2022 Share Posted February 27, 2022 1 minute ago, CornwallRam said: They can't issue a winding up order if we exit via a restructuring plan because the existing company would be would up anyway. The club would be owned by a new company which would not owe HMRC a penny. So would lose our place in the league,if you can just do a restructuring plan why are the administrators doing all this negotiating if you can carry on as before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atherstoneram Posted February 27, 2022 Share Posted February 27, 2022 4 minutes ago, PistoldPete said: I haven't speculated any such thing. Only that it is in the interests of any creditor to accept something that is better than nothing. And the admin team are trying to get the best deal they can, why wouldn't they? I have no doubt the administrators are doing their best, i have never questioned what they are doing or how long it is taking but there is nothing to stop anyone saying what is being offered is not acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CornwallRam Posted February 27, 2022 Share Posted February 27, 2022 1 minute ago, atherstoneram said: So would lose our place in the league,if you can just do a restructuring plan why are the administrators doing all this negotiating if you can carry on as before. Because the preferred alternative is a CVA which would allow us to exit administration without a points deduction. The problem is that it might not be possible to get a buyer to pay that much. The restructuring plan would almost certainly attract a 15 point penalty, but would keep our place in the EFL as long as we settled 100% of the footballing debts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnero Posted February 27, 2022 Share Posted February 27, 2022 2 hours ago, Kingpin said: Can’t see the likes of M. A. being that keen on renting the stadium. Nor me. Why spend £2.5m a year on rent to an external party (to cover MSD interest of 10%), when he can easily buy the stadium himself and rent it to the club, or loan the money to the club to buy the stadium and charge 10% interest himself. GB SPORTS, Dordogne-Ram and strawhillram 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alram Posted February 27, 2022 Share Posted February 27, 2022 i am just so demoralised by the whole thing you get deadlines and hope to have something to look forward too but deep down you know you will be disapointed have Q kept their word about anything they have said so far? i think they are pushing their luck in thinking the efl wil continue extending until we actually get some good news. i am seriously worried about the coming days i would like somebody to tell me a reason why these guys are up to the job apart from saying they are qualified professionals . it all seems like blind faith to me. they appear useless what has been done since arrival. no respectable journalist has said anything on the matter and that just makes me think there is no news to report which is not good Gritstone Tup, jimtastic56 and Wolfie20 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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