Big Trav Posted November 21, 2021 Share Posted November 21, 2021 Sorry if this has already been covered but does anyone know if they’ll be any repercussions for Mel and Pearce? Surely withholding funding for 2 years and racking up lots of debt with no intention to pay it off Is a criminal offence? Are there any legal people of this forum who deal with crime in insolvency and admin cases that could enlighten us pls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoldPete Posted November 21, 2021 Share Posted November 21, 2021 6 minutes ago, Big Trav said: Sorry if this has already been covered but does anyone know if they’ll be any repercussions for Mel and Pearce? Surely withholding funding for 2 years and racking up lots of debt with no intention to pay it off Is a criminal offence? Are there any legal people of this forum who deal with crime in insolvency and admin cases that could enlighten us pls The EFL asked Government for support for COVID and were refused. They asked EPL for help and all that was agreed was a loan. That loan was capped and the conditions when finalised excluded Derby from eligibility. "Withholding funding" is not a crime of any sort. Nor is there any evidence that there was no intention to pay off any debts accruing. Insolvencies happen all of the time but rarely result in criminal charges. Insolvency caused by COVID will definitley not result in any charges at all. Carl Sagan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewton Posted November 21, 2021 Share Posted November 21, 2021 1 minute ago, PistoldPete said: The EFL asked Government for support for COVID and were refused. They asked EPL for help and all that was agreed was a loan. That loan was capped and the conditions when finalised excluded Derby from eligibility. "Withholding funding" is not a crime of any sort. Nor is there any evidence that there was no intention to pay off any debts accruing. Insolvencies happen all of the time but rarely result in criminal charges. Insolvency caused by COVID will definitley not result in any charges at all. I'd concur (about the likelihood of liability/charges). Even when there's been clear cases of Directors shifting cash and assets to other companies prior to Administration, the worst that usually happens is being barred from being a Director for a period. Only clear cases of fraud & embezzlement tend to end up in prison sentences, though screwing HMRC over sometimes has repercussions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whiteroseram Posted November 21, 2021 Share Posted November 21, 2021 (edited) I'm no expert but I suspect not filing accounts with Companies House on time (technically breaking company law) is the only crime committed Racking up debt, selling assets to yourself, breaking competition rules resulting in point deductions and walking away and leaving administrators to tidy up are all not crimes. Morally we'll all judge by different standards of course Edited November 21, 2021 by whiteroseram Adding a t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted November 21, 2021 Share Posted November 21, 2021 Not liable, just a liability. May Contain Nuts, Tamworthram and jimtastic56 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Durden Posted November 21, 2021 Share Posted November 21, 2021 It's an interesting one. There are some similarities with long firm fraud where a company gains a good credit rating with its suppliers with the intention of ordering a massive amount of stock in one hit then the company vanishes and the goods bought on credit are then knocked out somewhere else. The question in this case which was posed by the OP was that did Mel knowingly or premeditatedly rack up huge debts in the knowledge that they would never be paid back? And is this therefore fraudulent? I'm not suggesting for a minute that before we went into administration the office furniture got knocked out on eBay on the QT but it's a debate worthy of some answers. europia 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Trav Posted November 21, 2021 Author Share Posted November 21, 2021 7 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said: It's an interesting one. There are some similarities with long firm fraud where a company gains a good credit rating with its suppliers with the intention of ordering a massive amount of stock in one hit then the company vanishes and the goods bought on credit are then knocked out somewhere else. The question in this case which was posed by the OP was that did Mel knowingly or premeditatedly rack up huge debts in the knowledge that they would never be paid back? And is this therefore fraudulent? I'm not suggesting for a minute that before we went into administration the office furniture got knocked out on eBay on the QT but it's a debate worthy of some answers. Was mainly thinking about it all because it’s come out in reports that he’s stopped paying bills since the villa final. Since then he’s racked up debts and spent 10 million on bielik and spent money on cocu etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mucker1884 Posted November 21, 2021 Share Posted November 21, 2021 53 minutes ago, Big Trav said: Are there any legal people of this forum who deal with crime in insolvency and admin cases that could enlighten us pls According to the statistics I have, if you "@" 20 forum members at random, at least 7 of them will match your full criteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamworthram Posted November 21, 2021 Share Posted November 21, 2021 I suspect the only potential offence is allowing the company to continue to "trade" whilst insolvent. If guilty I don't think it would help Derby in any way - on the creditors. Tyler Durden 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumpy Git Posted November 21, 2021 Share Posted November 21, 2021 As a business owner myself, I never cease to be amazed at what some company directors get away with. I suppose it depends on how you were brought up (and how well you like to sleep at night)? jimtastic56, Fla Ram, ariotofmyown and 4 others 2 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Durden Posted November 21, 2021 Share Posted November 21, 2021 4 minutes ago, Big Trav said: Was mainly thinking about it all because it’s come out in reports that he’s stopped paying bills since the villa final. Since then he’s racked up debts and spent 10 million on bielik and spent money on cocu etc. Yes could be compared to writing out rubber cheques knowing the money will never be honoured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Contain Nuts Posted November 21, 2021 Share Posted November 21, 2021 (edited) Always worth remembering the unique circumstances faced by football clubs against other businesses. While the rules are the rules there tends to be a lot more leniency from authority than your average business. So if this was Mel Morris in charge of, say, Tesco Stores Ltd then he'd potentially end up in a lot more hot water for his actions than he is for what he's done in football. Edited November 21, 2021 by Coconut's Beard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoldPete Posted November 21, 2021 Share Posted November 21, 2021 4 hours ago, Tamworthram said: I suspect the only potential offence is allowing the company to continue to "trade" whilst insolvent. If guilty I don't think it would help Derby in any way - on the creditors. That is equivalent to saying we should have called in the adminstrators earlier. Yet the same people saying we shoudlnt have called in the administrators. There was a reasonable expectation that losses due to COVID would be met by someone else, or at least a loan granted to tide us over. Also a reasonable expectation that the club would be sold, with advanced negotiations going on. Once neither failed to materialise it was the right thing to call in admin to protect the creditors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumpy Git Posted November 21, 2021 Share Posted November 21, 2021 1 hour ago, PistoldPete said: Also a reasonable expectation that the club would be sold, with advanced negotiations going on. Once neither failed to materialise it was the right thing to call in admin to protect the creditors. Let's be honest, it's no wonder MM couldn't sell us with that amount of debt. We need to bring back the ducking stool. Tyler Durden and jimtastic56 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamworthram Posted November 21, 2021 Share Posted November 21, 2021 3 hours ago, PistoldPete said: That is equivalent to saying we should have called in the adminstrators earlier. Yet the same people saying we shoudlnt have called in the administrators. There was a reasonable expectation that losses due to COVID would be met by someone else, or at least a loan granted to tide us over. Also a reasonable expectation that the club would be sold, with advanced negotiations going on. Once neither failed to materialise it was the right thing to call in admin to protect the creditors. I’m not saying there is a case to answer in this respect, just that’s the only thing I suspect he COULD be liable for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoldPete Posted November 21, 2021 Share Posted November 21, 2021 3 hours ago, Grumpy Git said: Let's be honest, it's no wonder MM couldn't sell us with that amount of debt. We need to bring back the ducking stool. Fair comment maybe, but hopefully Kirchner and others do not agree otherwise we are in deep poo. But the debt was not that great in 2019 when Mel was first trying to sell. It just grew unfortunately and of course COVID was a major factor in that, at the end the only factor. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plymouthram Posted November 21, 2021 Share Posted November 21, 2021 I am gobsmacked by the amount of tax we owe, its a mind blowing bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
europia Posted November 21, 2021 Share Posted November 21, 2021 The most common offences that company directors are prosecuted for include: Breach of duty Fraudulent misrepresentation Fraudulent trading Bribery Falsifying documents False accounting Health & safety breaches Negligence Tax evasion Data protection breaches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram1988 Posted November 22, 2021 Share Posted November 22, 2021 Mel needs to do the right thing and hand back to the club Pride Park. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinhectoring Posted November 22, 2021 Share Posted November 22, 2021 22 hours ago, Big Trav said: Sorry if this has already been covered but does anyone know if they’ll be any repercussions for Mel and Pearce? Surely withholding funding for 2 years and racking up lots of debt with no intention to pay it off Is a criminal offence? Are there any legal people of this forum who deal with crime in insolvency and admin cases that could enlighten us pls Short answer based on what we have been told is ‘no’ . Not least because he is just about to waive £10s of millions of enforceable debt which will put money into the hands of unsecured creditors and HMRC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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