Derby finally accept 21 point deduction.

[duncanjwitham]

9 minutes ago, Gaspode said:

That's actually the bit that is confusing me - it appears thast we weren't charged (for the reported breaches based on the re-done accounts), but have been punished anyway....almost like some sort of plea bargain. I guess that's why the EFL make a noise about "the principles of the Regulations" rather than follwoing due process - gives them the wriggle room to pretty much do whatever they please....

A plea-bargain is exactly what it was.  Both sides agree on the punishment, get independent sign-off on it, and then move on.  Either side could have refused the agreed decision, in which case it would have gone through the formal charging process, with DCs, LAPs and so on.  Presumably both sides wanted to avoid another lengthy process on top of the one we've had already.

[Sussex Ram]

With the various points deductions now confirmed, and those deductions in turn all but confirming relegation, the ins and outs of the squad and back room staff becomes the main (only?) “interesting” conversation to be had for the remainder of the season. What a sad situation to be in, that we’ve effectively lost over half a season of competitive football. 

Don’t get me wrong- I am sure all the fans will be in full voice at the games, and we’ll still want to see good football and positive results in the face of adversity. But ultimately it all becomes a bit futile. Is this a sneak peek into what the Super League would have been like, or American sports? Once you’re out the running to win the league/make the playoffs/avoid relegation, you’re coasting into the end of the season.

[PistoldPete]

16 minutes ago, Gaspode said:

That's actually the bit that is confusing me - it appears thast we weren't charged (for the reported breaches based on the re-done accounts), but have been punished anyway....almost like some sort of plea bargain. I guess that's why the EFL make a noise about "the principles of the Regulations" rather than follwoing due process - gives them the wriggle room to pretty much do whatever they please....

Yes exactly. Saying we cannot take credit for exceptional items. Well lots of clubs do . Lots of clubs have sold their stadia . But only Derby were charged for that. Ok Wednesday too but that was because it was in the wrong year.

Edited November 17, 2021 by PistoldPete

[Gaspode]

2 minutes ago, Sussex Ram said:

With the various points deductions now confirmed, and those deductions in turn all but confirming relegation, the ins and outs of the squad and back room staff becomes the main (only?) “interesting” conversation to be had for the remainder of the season. What a sad situation to be in, that we’ve effectively lost over half a season of competitive football. 

Don’t get me wrong- I am sure all the fans will be in full voice at the games, and we’ll still want to see good football and positive results in the face of adversity. But ultimately it all becomes a bit futile. Is this a sneak peek into what the Super League would have been like, or American sports? Once you’re out the running to win the league/make the playoffs/avoid relegation, you’re coasting into the end of the season.

You're right, but you would at least expect there to be a formal charge put forward before they got into negotiating the punishment - makes a mockery of their rules if they don't even do the basics....

[Sussex Ram]

Does anyone know the year by year breakdown of our P&S losses? The Agreed Decision from the EFL states losses over various 3 or 4 year rolling periods, as per their guidelines, but it’s hard to decipher what loss we made in what year. It would be useful to know what loss we made in the most recent season, so we have an idea of how tight the purse strings need to be this year and next, to remain within P&S limits in future- and avoid yet more points deductions.

That being said, our budget in League 1 will naturally be lower. Does anyone know if the P&S spending limits are lower in League 1? I believe it’s a limit of £39m losses over three years in the Championship.

Not that it changes the outcome, but I tried to do an example calculation of what the losses might have been over all seven seasons referenced in the EFL agreed decision. There is a yo-yo nature to the numbers I have, but if you take the average loss over 7 years, I get £12.53m per season. That is below the effective threshold of £13m loss per year (i.e £39m over three consecutive years).

My numbers might be wrong, and I know the EFL guidelines take a three year average- not seven!- but my point is that 9 points feels quite harsh. We seem to have been walloped because of a timing issue. On the other hand, might these numbers be to-yo in nature due to the sale of the stadium making one year look particular good? It’s so hard to decipher- and like I say, it changes nothing.

[24Charlie]

32 minutes ago, richinspain said:

 

Edited November 17, 2021 by 24Charlie

[24Charlie]

1 hour ago, Oldben said:

A cautionary tale, noting lessons learned.

Leeds Relegated to League One

Leeds were docked ten points for going into voluntary administration at the end of the 2006/07 season. 

The club owed HMRC £6m and would have gone into liquidation if not for administration.

They lost 15 points before their first League One season because they didn't pay enough of their creditors.

In League One for three years.

Leeds were promoted to the Championship in 2009/10 thanks to Jermaine Beckford's 25 league goals.

Manchester United were beaten by Leeds in the 

2009/10 FA Cup third round.

Leeds United were promoted to the Premier League in 2019/20 after 25 managers since their relegation to League One.

Take Homes

* to win league one you need a quality team with a top scoring striker, they must be able to score circa 20 goals in a season

* it's tough in League One, you need an astute manager

* a club in difficulty like Derby, needs to say we will never back down. If Leeds can do it, so can Derby

* Derby require a very astute and tactical manager who knows how to get promoted

For any players that Derby don't wish to lose, there needs to be contracts in writing guaranteeing that the club will pay whatever salary is required to keep those players next season. That sort of contract doesn't kick on until the transfer embargo lifts, but I'd it doesn't happen then Derby could lose a lot of money from players who are near the end of their contracts and from any players with a release clause if the club is relegated.

Leeds where already down when then took the ten points. They went into admin as soon as relegation was assured to get the deduction applied that season so they would not get it applied in league 1. The EFL saw through it and handed them a 15 point deduction which Leeds appealed but where unsuccessful. As a result they didn’t bounce straight back.

[PistoldPete]

1 minute ago, 24Charlie said:

Leeds where already down when then took the ten points. They went into admin as soon as relegation was assured to get the deduction applied that season so they would not get it applied in league 1. The EFL saw through it and handed them a 15 point deduction which Leeds appealed but where unsuccessful. As a result they didn’t bounce straight back.

Dirty Leeds as usual. Oh and by the way still the only thing we have been found guilty of was something worth a fine of £100k . Less than Leeds for their spygate.

[Ghost of Clough]

32 minutes ago, Hordh said:

 

I forgot one very important detail - it would have been about £4m (4 points) in the period to 2018 if the 2017 period wasn't reset.

Edited November 17, 2021 by angieram

[ram59]

Is the suspended 3 points tacked on to the end of the 9 points in relation to any more past violations or is it regarding the club breaking the new agreed restrictions until the end of this season?

If it's the latter, then maybe new owners will say screw the EFL, we'll take the extra 3 point hit and sign who we like on what wages we like. I'm sure signing a couple of top players will soon make up for the extra 3 points and it will allow the the club to start rebuilding 6 months earlier.

[MackworthRamIsGod]

9 hours ago, kevinhectoring said:

what's this in the Agreed Decision about:

"iv) Not claim any “exceptional items” in the Club’s P&S Calculation, without the EFL’s consent in advance. "

Is this to rule out getting benefit from MM waiving loans. Didn't Forest do this? Isn't any other club allowed to? 

 

It looks to me like every avenue that has been open to other clubs previously is slowly being closed to us.

The EFL want us down and clearly don't want us back any time soon.

[VulcanRam]

This thread has turned into an echo chamber of self-righteousness, whataboutery, entranchment, and opinion presented as fact but rooted in, well, opinion. Round and round it goes.

I've always found it odd that prisons are full of innocent people.

 

It's done. Let's stop looking backwards and start looking forwards. 

[Ghost of Clough]

6 minutes ago, Sussex Ram said:

Does anyone know the year by year breakdown of our P&S losses? The Agreed Decision from the EFL states losses over various 3 or 4 year rolling periods, as per their guidelines, but it’s hard to decipher what loss we made in what year. It would be useful to know what loss we made in the most recent season, so we have an idea of how tight the purse strings need to be this year and next, to remain within P&S limits in future- and avoid yet more points deductions.

That being said, our budget in League 1 will naturally be lower. Does anyone know if the P&S spending limits are lower in League 1? I believe it’s a limit of £39m losses over three years in the Championship.

Not that it changes the outcome, but I tried to do an example calculation of what the losses might have been over all seven seasons referenced in the EFL agreed decision. There is a yo-yo nature to the numbers I have, but if you take the average loss over 7 years, I get £12.53m per season. That is below the effective threshold of £13m loss per year (i.e £39m over three consecutive years).

My numbers might be wrong, and I know the EFL guidelines take a three year average- not seven!- but my point is that 9 points feels quite harsh. We seem to have been walloped because of a timing issue. On the other hand, might these numbers be to-yo in nature due to the sale of the stadium making one year look particular good? It’s so hard to decipher- and like I say, it changes nothing.

I imagine the club and EFL know.

It appears the Covid year isn't accounted for, so no punishments or adjustments made for the relevant years.
Adjusting my figures slightly to suit would give something like this:

14/15 = -£5.60m
15/16 = -£22.12m
16/17 = -£19.04m
17/18 = -£2.12m
18/19 = -£35.60m
19/20 = -£35.00m
20/21 = -£16.68m

[CBRammette]

11 minutes ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

It looks to me like every avenue that has been open to other clubs previously is slowly being closed to us.

The EFL want us down and clearly don't want us back any time soon.

Perhaps if Mel hadnt been caught on film talking about such things it wouldnt be in there

[Kingpin]

6 minutes ago, CBRammette said:

The EFL want us down and clearly don't want us back any time soon.

Surely If there’s a gripe it can only be with MM. Why DCFC as a club?

A lot of us appear to want to be victims here, what I want to know is why are people like MM trusted with football clubs, and ALLOWED to drop them in the poo then bugger off.   

 

[CBRammette]

2 minutes ago, Kingpin said:

Surely If there’s a gripe it can only be with MM. Why DCFC as a club?

A lot of us appear to want to be victims here, what I want to know is why are people like MM trusted with football clubs, and ALLOWED to drop them in the poo then bugger off.   

 

I didnt say that! Was replying to a post

[Dean (hick) Saunders]

Let’s just get on with it (life, league 1, etc).

Was annoyed yesterday but expected it. Put the rake in the garage as coals are smooth as they’ll get.

[Sparkle]

2 hours ago, PistoldPete said:

No. Half right. We haven't broken any rules but we have been charged.

Oh ok 

[Sparkle]

2 hours ago, Jubbs said:

No. We have exceeded the limits of FFP, so we have broke the rules.

But we haven’t been charged so the full facts never get heard - no wonder people lose trust in any system 

[Sparkle]

1 hour ago, duncanjwitham said:

A plea-bargain is exactly what it was.  Both sides agree on the punishment, get independent sign-off on it, and then move on.  Either side could have refused the agreed decision, in which case it would have gone through the formal charging process, with DCs, LAPs and so on.  Presumably both sides wanted to avoid another lengthy process on top of the one we've had already.

It’s not really anybody to do with Derby county football club agreeing with this it’s the administrators doing it to sell the club under duress like a forced confession before hanging