Energy suppliers going bust

[Bob The Badger]

On 27/05/2022 at 12:49, Unlucky Alf said:

So all in all the £550 I get might just cover the rise in gas/electric price cap now and in October ?‍♀️

Phew, well thank duck there's no increase in food or other sundry costs than mate!

I've been paying £100 per month and had almost £500 in credit last month.

So I'm quids in.

Other than the fact that we use oil for central heating and an Aga for cooking and I just bought 1,000 litres at almost double what I paid for it in December.

Oh, and we use a wood burning stove and the logs for that have gone up 125% since I last ordered. 

In reality, £400 is about what I'm paying extra for 6 months of fuel. Or probably 8 or 9 months in fairness, taking the summer into account. .

[Ram-Alf]

4 hours ago, Bob The Badger said:

Phew, well thank duck there's no increase in food or other sundry costs than mate!

I've been paying £100 per month and had almost £500 in credit last month.

So I'm quids in.

Other than the fact that we use oil for central heating and an Aga for cooking and I just bought 1,000 litres at almost double what I paid for it in December.

Oh, and we use a wood burning stove and the logs for that have gone up 125% since I last ordered. 

In reality, £400 is about what I'm paying extra for 6 months of fuel. Or probably 8 or 9 months in fairness, taking the summer into account. .

I filled the car up this morning, Jesus it went over £50 ?for the 1'st time, I've only got a 1200 corsa christ on a bike, Food now 10-15 £s a month extra, I retired in April and thought life could be sweet...not yet it aint, Thank duck for Aldi and Lidl expensive but cheaper than the big 4 

[ariotofmyown]

On 27/05/2022 at 12:53, Stive Pesley said:

This is what I don't get - maybe I'm just thick

wholesale costs of energy going up? Meaning we have to pay more for our fuel - yet at the same time we're being told that the energy companies are making record-breaking profits? Why is it not hurting them too?

 

When fuel costs started to go up last year, the price cap meant companies started losing money and many went bust. Perhaps having loads of small re-sellers of energy was pretty pointless when they can't cope with price changes?

Now, like you say, the energy companies are making these huge profits. Is that because the cap has been increased? Or have wholesale prices dropped? Are these profits just making up for the losses from last year? Or are we been ripped off?

[ariotofmyown]

This suggests wholesale prices are still much higher than they were

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/energy-data-and-research/data-portal/wholesale-market-indicators

Is it the companies who drill for fuel those making the big money, as opposed to the suppliers?

[EtoileSportiveDeDerby]

6 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

When fuel costs started to go up last year, the price cap meant companies started losing money and many went bust. Perhaps having loads of small re-sellers of energy was pretty pointless when they can't cope with price changes?

Now, like you say, the energy companies are making these huge profits. Is that because the cap has been increased? Or have wholesale prices dropped? Are these profits just making up for the losses from last year? Or are we been ripped off?

Funny you say that, the latter i suspect.

in France prices have gone up by 4% because Emmanuel's government has told them, Mandalorian style, that is the way...

Straight from Ofgem find below the "price gap" aka the chocolate fireguard

Wholesale prices are going up so unit prices are also going up, kind of understand this as there is a direct correlation.

Can someone explain to me why the daily standing charge for elec. goes up from 25p to 45p. As far as i know there is no plan to gold plate the cables and pylons up and down the streets of the UK, so where does this come from?

You and me my friend need to find a better paid job, it is all our fault remember!

 

 

 

Edited June 1, 2022 by EtoileSportiveDeDerby

[GeneralRam]

Just checked my rates here in the US and its 11 cents per kWh

[EtoileSportiveDeDerby]

4 minutes ago, GeneralRam said:

Just checked my rates here in the US and its 11 cents per kWh

If i can find one of those long extension lead, can we do a deal? 

[GeneralRam]

Just now, EtoileSportiveDeDerby said:

If i can find one of those long extension lead, can we do a deal? 

Only if we complete it within 48 hours.

[jono]

On 27/05/2022 at 12:53, Stive Pesley said:

This is what I don't get - maybe I'm just thick

wholesale costs of energy going up? Meaning we have to pay more for our fuel - yet at the same time we're being told that the energy companies are making record-breaking profits? Why is it not hurting them too?

 

It’s a really interesting one that I have been grumbling about for a long time and trying to get my head round too.

The ones that own the nuclear power station, Wind Farm or have a gas field are laughing all the way to the bank, whether they sell it to a distributor like say Bulb or directly to a customer they are so quids in it isn’t true. 
 

If they are a merchant ..again like  Bulb .. well they are suffering and basically any like them are in admin with the govt propping them up because what they buy from producers has gone up but they have been capped by the govt as to what they can charge us. They are well and truly stuffed.
 

Gas is weird because we used to have loads in the North Sea and then Morecambe bay but that’s kind of running out. We buy a fair bit from Norway which has made us safer than many European nations. A lot of Gas now is liquified natural gas (LNG) bought in tankers from the Middle East. … Thing is it’s the Gas and Nuclear that keep the lights on there isn’t enough renewable anyway, we can’t store it and it isn’t constant and predictable. In the end it’s a commodity and like wheat, copper or anything else the price fluctuates. If you are a producer and the item is in short supply, you make a fortune. On the other hand back in the 1990’s oil slumped to 14 dollars a barrel .. I saw a Shell co magazine .. “how to survive the 14 dollar challenge” At that time the oil co’s only broke even at 24 dollars a barrel. Thing is you need energy generators to make money because it is a huge long term industry that has to invest gazillions to build power stations and infrastructure where the return takes 50 years to come through. And if they don’t profit they won’t build. Also they are safe havens for reliable money. Just about every private pension fund has a big chunk of money in the oil and gas co’s because they need safe places that always pay .. so they can pay their pensioners. We buy loads of nuclear from the French but they have put the price up because they have had to buy LNG from the Middle East as their Russian supply is cut/reduced. 
 

my suspicion is that the early resistance to a windfall tax came because the govt needs leverage to achieve green targets. they need the producers the invest in charge points for EV’s .. all that laying heavy cable across a nation and all the extra green electricity generating capacity. Sure as anything the energy cos will be saying .. we need our profits if you want EV’s by 2030 

Personally I think it’s a mixed bag they are a near monopoly/cartel and the govt needs to tighten the ground rules / extract undertakings, at the same time going green costs big money in the real world. You have have big big engineering projects and sound technology which is currently in its infancy. The Ukrainian war has simply hurried something along that was going to happen anyway. 

[Stive Pesley]

2 hours ago, jono said:

It’s a really interesting one that I have been grumbling about for a long time and trying to get my head round too.

The ones that own the nuclear power station, Wind Farm or have a gas field are laughing all the way to the bank, whether they sell it to a distributor like say Bulb or directly to a customer they are so quids in it isn’t true. 
 

If they are a merchant ..again like  Bulb .. well they are suffering and basically any like them are in admin with the govt propping them up because what they buy from producers has gone up but they have been capped by the govt as to what they can charge us. They are well and truly stuffed.
 

Gas is weird because we used to have loads in the North Sea and then Morecambe bay but that’s kind of running out. We buy a fair bit from Norway which has made us safer than many European nations. A lot of Gas now is liquified natural gas (LNG) bought in tankers from the Middle East. … Thing is it’s the Gas and Nuclear that keep the lights on there isn’t enough renewable anyway, we can’t store it and it isn’t constant and predictable. In the end it’s a commodity and like wheat, copper or anything else the price fluctuates. If you are a producer and the item is in short supply, you make a fortune. On the other hand back in the 1990’s oil slumped to 14 dollars a barrel .. I saw a Shell co magazine .. “how to survive the 14 dollar challenge” At that time the oil co’s only broke even at 24 dollars a barrel. Thing is you need energy generators to make money because it is a huge long term industry that has to invest gazillions to build power stations and infrastructure where the return takes 50 years to come through. And if they don’t profit they won’t build. Also they are safe havens for reliable money. Just about every private pension fund has a big chunk of money in the oil and gas co’s because they need safe places that always pay .. so they can pay their pensioners. We buy loads of nuclear from the French but they have put the price up because they have had to buy LNG from the Middle East as their Russian supply is cut/reduced. 
 

my suspicion is that the early resistance to a windfall tax came because the govt needs leverage to achieve green targets. they need the producers the invest in charge points for EV’s .. all that laying heavy cable across a nation and all the extra green electricity generating capacity. Sure as anything the energy cos will be saying .. we need our profits if you want EV’s by 2030 

Personally I think it’s a mixed bag they are a near monopoly/cartel and the govt needs to tighten the ground rules / extract undertakings, at the same time going green costs big money in the real world. You have have big big engineering projects and sound technology which is currently in its infancy. The Ukrainian war has simply hurried something along that was going to happen anyway. 

Wonder where we'd be if energy had never been privatised?

Maybe worse off, I'm sure some will argue. I don't know, but I do know that private interests have made billions in profit as a result. Have we, the consumers really benefitted at all?

I see the report today from Ofgem criticising the power companies for their poor storm response. Telling them they need to invest more in protecting the supply. Therein lies the problem. Nothing the privatised energy companies do is geared to improve things for the consumer..only to increase their profit 

[jono]

2 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

Wonder where we'd be if energy had never been privatised?

Maybe worse off, I'm sure some will argue. I don't know, but I do know that private interests have made billions in profit as a result. Have we, the consumers really benefitted at all?

I see the report today from Ofgem criticising the power companies for their poor storm response. Telling them they need to invest more in protecting the supply. Therein lies the problem. Nothing the privatised energy companies do is geared to improve things for the consumer..only to increase their profit 

It’s an interesting thought. I think in times past institutions like the  CEGB did a great job .. planned construction of generating capacity using national resources. It was right for the times. It worked for a time. Since then, there has been a huge shift in technology and social demand. Not just for reliable energy sources but consumer choice and the chance to negotiate / not to be told “this is what you get, like it or lump it. … and then the green renewable desire balanced with practical real world delivery. I always find the public/private discourse very stimulating from a debate pov. There is good and bad in both. Take telecoms. Phones used to be vastly expensive and restricted. How long via a state system ( the GPO ) to get a phone line .? months !  .. it was truly terrible. They owned you. You had no clout, no right to expect a service. They were appalling, buried in red tape and pointless stupid regulations .. you had to rent your phone, you couldn’t do your own extension.. not only couldn’t you do it .. it was a criminal offence to dare to touch a cable. On the other side the dodgy private industry energy “providers” with wide boy distributors promising the world but really just taking a cut, or massive organisations operating a price cartel. It’s a minefield and definitely not black and white / public Vs private. 

[jono]

2 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

Wonder where we'd be if energy had never been privatised?

Maybe worse off, I'm sure some will argue. I don't know, but I do know that private interests have made billions in profit as a result. Have we, the consumers really benefitted at all?

I see the report today from Ofgem criticising the power companies for their poor storm response. Telling them they need to invest more in protecting the supply. Therein lies the problem. Nothing the privatised energy companies do is geared to improve things for the consumer..only to increase their profit 

For me Stiv .. I like that they have made money but in their position as the providers of a basic need for life and operating in the protected market that that gives, they have a responsibility and societal obligation to “give back” now whether that is via special taxation / price caps or undertakings to invest for the people, I am not sure. One thing for certain, it is something that any government has to consider seriously. I am all for entrepreneurs but just as a loaf of bread has to meet minimum standards then energy providers have an obligation way beyond a maker of T shirts, to the people they supply. 

[Stive Pesley]

Discussion of energy bills seems to have fragmented over multiple threads, so resurrecting this one as the one with the most pertinent title. I suspect it's going to generate a lot of heat over the next few months (pun very much intended)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62801913

Quote

Energy bosses have insisted for some time that a government-backed superfund from which they could borrow to subsidise bills "is the only game in town".

Under such a plan, the government would guarantee loans to energy companies that would be used to freeze or at least lower bills this winter and beyond. These loans would be repaid from bills over the next 10 to 20 years.

This just sounds all shades of wrong to me. Effectively mortgaging energy. Yes, our bills may remain affordable in the short term, but the energy companies still rake in the billions and it does nothing to address the mismatch of energy prices to household income

 

[ketteringram]

9 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

Discussion of energy bills seems to have fragmented over multiple threads, so resurrecting this one as the one with the most pertinent title. I suspect it's going to generate a lot of heat over the next few months (pun very much intended)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62801913

This just sounds all shades of wrong to me. Effectively mortgaging energy. Yes, our bills may remain affordable in the short term, but the energy companies still rake in the billions and it does nothing to address the mismatch of energy prices to household income

 

Do you think there should be a different price for energy, depending on household income?

[Wolfie]

16 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

Discussion of energy bills seems to have fragmented over multiple threads, so resurrecting this one as the one with the most pertinent title. I suspect it's going to generate a lot of heat over the next few months (pun very much intended)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62801913

This just sounds all shades of wrong to me. Effectively mortgaging energy. Yes, our bills may remain affordable in the short term, but the energy companies still rake in the billions and it does nothing to address the mismatch of energy prices to household income

 

But most of the time it's not the companies making huge profits, who are the ones selling it to us. That's why a lot of them went bust last year.

The energy market needs a massive overhaul. Why is low cost wind electricty pegged to the gas price FFS?.

As a quick solution (which is definitely needed), this is the best option IMO. It will also help keep inflation down.

[Stive Pesley]

1 minute ago, Wolfie said:

As a quick solution (which is definitely needed), this is the best option IMO. It will also help keep inflation down

In some respects yes - a quick solution, but the part i disagree with is that we (tax payers) are still lumbered with the debt in the long term and those getting rich as a result still continue to get rich.  We are supposed to be thankful that we're not freezing to death and live under the illusion that energy is affordable and the market is not broken. I guess Windfall tax on the profit makers is preferable, especially as they still ultimately get the money back anyway!

15 minutes ago, ketteringram said:

Do you think there should be a different price for energy, depending on household income?

It's an interesting question. The current solution not being means tested certainly seems a bigger win for the well-off who have bigger or multiple homes to heat

It could actually be that one silver lining from this energy crisis is that people become far more aware of saving electricity/gas and start to generally use less. It's no good for climate change in the long run that we seem to have become a society that takes energy use for granted. When we feed friends and relatives cats while they are away I'm always amazed that they leave their lights on, appliances plugged in and the heating still coming on every day!

[Boycie]

Looks like Truss is capping the energy price and handing the shortfall direct to the energy suppliers.

Those who set the price of energy. Hmmmm.

[1of4]

Everyone happy with the way Truss and her government have decided to deal with the energy crisis? 

Or should they also have gone with a windfall tax on the energy companies

She claims it would be wrong to put an extra tax on these companies. As they need these profits, to enable them to invest in future energy needs of our country

I'm sure these companies will have already plan their future investments for years to come, on how much and where they will spend it. So that any extra profits they now make will go straight into the shareholders' pockets with no additional money spent on investments, than that already planned for.

[Stive Pesley]

29 minutes ago, 1of4 said:

She claims it would be wrong to put an extra tax on these companies. As they need these profits, to enable them to chuck a couple of million quid donation into the Tory Party coffers as a thankyou

Fixed that for you

 

[BaaLocks]

37 minutes ago, 1of4 said:

Everyone happy with the way Truss and her government have decided to deal with the energy crisis? 

Or should they also have gone with a windfall tax on the energy companies

She claims it would be wrong to put an extra tax on these companies. As they need these profits, to enable them to invest in future energy needs of our country

I'm sure these companies will have already plan their future investments for years to come, on how much and where they will spend it. So that any extra profits they now make will go straight into the shareholders' pockets with no additional money spent on investments, than that already planned for.

Tell that story about investing profits back into the infrastructure to the water companies and the rail providers. Yeah, they've really gone all out on that one haven't they? She's also - as many have - completely missing the point of definition of profit, that is what is left over once you have invested all you deem necessary into infrastructure. Profit (EBITDA) is, quite simply, the cream that gets shared among shareholders.

Actually, the EU have passed a decree for windfall taxes to be applied in all member states so - strangely - we have one of the first major benefits of Brexit now being played out, the the tune of £150bn (albeit that the benefit is for a limited few and not you and me). The only way this will be paid back will be by us, in future taxes or - as Trussolini doesn't want higher taxes - from stripping public assets like the NHS even further back.

It's happening today, in plain sight, and there is three bits of nothing we can do about it (and, strangely, not too much that many really seem to want to do). I repeat £150bn - from public coffers to private bank accounts.

Edited September 8, 2022 by BaaLocks