Derby county value

[Crewton]

It's strange that, even allowing for those tweets being 6 years old, people thought that £4M could buy you a "PL quality" player. It might have bought you one that had the potential to become PL quality, but not many PL players changed clubs for less than £5M.

Also, wasn't the actual sum we paid for Butterfield upfront more like £3.3M?

[Carl Sagan]

1 hour ago, angieram said:

Okay, I have just been right through the Jacob Butterfield transfer thread. 59 pages. One poster @Carl Sagan called it out as a bad signing. Just one.

Two or three more thought the price was high but that he was a good player.

Rest were all saying he is class, we could sign who we wanted, we have the money, Rush/Morris are gods, that sort of stuff.

Someone said we should be signing better as Butterfield might not cut it in the Premier League when we got promoted at the end of the season! 

Many fans on the forum may have been changing their minds a few games into his Derby career, but it's just not true that they were doing it as he was signed. 

Ha! Perhaps more people will listen in future? Then again...

You have briefly cheered me up while in a slough of despond. It's all pretty hopeless. Mel gambled a lot of money on getting us into the Prem, with what will have seemed to him to have been quite good odds, but he lost and now we're all suffering. In terms of the value of the club which this thread's about, we're sadly worthless given our debts. I think Mel would sell for £1 to someone who would take some of the debts on. Sadly, we've tried that desperate tack before when the CoOp bank gave us to the Three Amigos for the same amount, who ended in jail for their leeching off the club and fanbase. Evidence of the suitors Mel has been prepared to talk to suggests he is at the stage when he will effectively give the club to anyone, not necessarily a good custodian, if they will take on some of the debts. Which brings all the chancers out wanting to take advantage.

Where do we go from here?

[angieram]

1 minute ago, Carl Sagan said:

Ha! Perhaps more people will listen in future? Then again...

You have briefly cheered me up while in a slough of despond. It's all pretty hopeless. Mel gambled a lot of money on getting us into the Prem, with what will have seemed to him to have been quite good odds, but he lost and now we're all suffering. In terms of the value of the club which this thread's about, we're sadly worthless given our debts. I think Mel would sell for £1 to someone who would take some of the debts on. Sadly, we've tried that desperate tack before when the CoOp bank gave us to the Three Amigos for the same amount, who ended in jail for their leeching off the club and fanbase. Evidence of the suitors Mel has been prepared to talk to suggests he is at the stage when he will effectively give the club to anyone, not necessarily a good custodian, if they will take on some of the debts. Which brings all the chancers out wanting to take advantage.

Where do we go from here?

Just reading that thread made me sad. A mix of regret at opportunity missed but also some disappointment at the arrogance of sections of the fanbase at that time.

I am sure that the club is for sale for the cost of settling the debts, but that's still somewhere between £40 and £50 million, I believe, and that's why we have a problem. 

Are there any genuine buyers out there who have that sort of money sloshing about? I think not. 

Running a football club no longer makes money and with increasing imbalance between the select few clubs and the rest, football as we know it is gradually being strangled to death. 

I don't know where DCFC goes from here. I certainly don't know where the game goes. 

[Ramarena]

3 hours ago, angieram said:

Okay, I have just been right through the Jacob Butterfield transfer thread. 59 pages. One poster @Carl Sagan called it out as a bad signing. Just one.

Two or three more thought the price was high but that he was a good player.

Rest were all saying he is class, we could sign who we wanted, we have the money, Rush/Morris are gods, that sort of stuff.

Someone said we should be signing better as Butterfield might not cut it in the Premier League when we got promoted at the end of the season! 

Many fans on the forum may have been changing their minds a few games into his Derby career, but it's just not true that they were doing it as he was signed. 

I think I would have been one of the ones saying he was a decent, if expensive replacement for the injured Hughes.

He actually started ok and had ability, but his career since that first season with us had been a downward spiral.

[angieram]

2 minutes ago, Ramarena said:

I think I would have been one of the ones saying he was a decent, if expensive replacement for the injured Hughes.

He actually started ok and had ability, but his career since that first season with us had been a downward spiral.

You're right. My observation at the time was that he had a good pass in him, but he needed space to play in. Suited Barnsley and Huddersfield who played mainly on the counter.

We had a lot of possession and were playing against two banks of four most of the time. Far less effective against breaking that down! 

I recall his best game for us in the away win at Hull that took us top of the table. Hull battered us that night yet we won 2- 0 with goals by Butterfield.  Playing on the counter attack in space.

Unfortunately being top wasn't good enough for Derby fans at the time. We wanted total football as well.

I felt the pressure on Butterfield,  Johnson etc didn't help. They always had the fans on their backs and Butterfield just seemed to melt under the pressure. ? Bet he wished he'd never come here and probably not the only one.

[Leeds Ram]

The club is ultimately worth what anyone is willing to pay for it. But my guess is the club cannot be worth that much in its current state, unless something changes quick we'll be a league one club next season and that may require significant investment to get us out of that hole and back into the championship. If you combine that with less revenue, a dysfunctional relationship with the EFL and a fan base that's shrinking by the game it's not necessarily looking great for an investment. 

 The assets are the stadium, the training facilities and an academy that has a solid recent record of selling players on but to retain it that also will require investment. If someone does buy us they'll be buying us at a very low period for the club, arguably it's the lowest point we've witnessed in almost 2 decades. This does give new owners the opportunity to inject a sense of renewal in the club that could activate a passionate fanbase that has the potential to grow significantly in numbers. But my gut tells me, if Mel is hoping to get 50-100 million for us now  he's living in cloud cuckoo land. He's going to have to accept he's lost a lot of money that he's not going to recoup and have to make do with a few million from the sale. 

[atherstoneram]

1 hour ago, Leeds Ram said:

The club is ultimately worth what anyone is willing to pay for it. But my guess is the club cannot be worth that much in its current state, unless something changes quick we'll be a league one club next season and that may require significant investment to get us out of that hole and back into the championship. If you combine that with less revenue, a dysfunctional relationship with the EFL and a fan base that's shrinking by the game it's not necessarily looking great for an investment. 

 The assets are the stadium, the training facilities and an academy that has a solid recent record of selling players on but to retain it that also will require investment. If someone does buy us they'll be buying us at a very low period for the club, arguably it's the lowest point we've witnessed in almost 2 decades. This does give new owners the opportunity to inject a sense of renewal in the club that could activate a passionate fanbase that has the potential to grow significantly in numbers. But my gut tells me, if Mel is hoping to get 50-100 million for us now  he's living in cloud cuckoo land. He's going to have to accept he's lost a lot of money that he's not going to recoup and have to make do with a few million from the sale. 

The stadium is not an asset of the club,that belongs to MM doesn't it? All people would really be buying is the DCFC brand name.

[Leeds Ram]

1 minute ago, atherstoneram said:

The stadium is not an asset of the club,that belongs to MM doesn't it? All people would really be buying is the DCFC brand name.

I'm presuming if someone buys the club 'all in' they'd also purchase the stadium. 

[RoyMac5]

54 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

I'm presuming if someone buys the club 'all in' they'd also purchase the stadium. 

Check what's on your invoice before you pay out! ?

[1967RAMS]

9 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Value of players is subjective but agree that we don't have much value on that front. Personally think we would be closer to £20m.

The HMRC debt, well we know there is one as it is listed as a reason for the EFL embargo, rumoured to be £20m but there is no information available in the public domain to back this up.

Contracts to players, yes they are a liability but also you need these contracts to be able to generate income.

As I have said on numerous occasions, as at 30 June 2018 (the latest accounts filed at Companies House) there is no debt to MM or any of his companies. The money has been put into the club via equity not debt.

MM may have monies owed from his other companies but that is not a debt of the club.

Not really sure what your point about giving the ground away is and to be honest it makes no sense.

If MM has a ground worth £80m and debts secured against it of £80m, the purchaser would pay £0 but it doesnt mean that the ground is being given away. No idea how you have concluded that HMRC would see that as fraudulent.

As far as I can see, the only debt we would eliminate by administration is the HMRC debt. Everything else appears to be secured against assets, so MM has nothing to gain by doing it and an awful lot to lose. He would lose the ground and see his club relegated to League One, would that make us an attractive proposition to any potential buyer?

It depends if the equity was put in from MM’s personal bank account which he is of course able to do with no implications. If, however this equity was introduced via another of MM’s business interests then that will remain on the books. Also as you correctly point out, this was from 2018. We have been haemorrhaging money for over 3 years since those accounts were filed with no income from crowds for the majority of that. Again without access to the books we cannot know the figure for certain but it’s been mentioned the figure is something north of a million per month. So let’s assume the players value and HMRC debt are roughly equal. Then we are around 40 million short. This may have been paid personally by MM or loaned by him or another company. If it’s the first, we’ll all is hunky dory. If the latter is the case which I suspect it is then the club is liable for this with no assets. That’s why I still feel administration may need to be considered. Again, without actually seeing the accounts, I can’t be certain but neither can you to the contrary 

Edited August 16, 2021 by 1967RAMS

[Rev]

6 hours ago, angieram said:

You're right. My observation at the time was that he had a good pass in him, but he needed space to play in. Suited Barnsley and Huddersfield who played mainly on the counter.

We had a lot of possession and were playing against two banks of four most of the time. Far less effective against breaking that down! 

I recall his best game for us in the away win at Hull that took us top of the table. Hull battered us that night yet we won 2- 0 with goals by Butterfield.  Playing on the counter attack in space.

Unfortunately being top wasn't good enough for Derby fans at the time. We wanted total football as well.

I felt the pressure on Butterfield,  Johnson etc didn't help. They always had the fans on their backs and Butterfield just seemed to melt under the pressure. ? Bet he wished he'd never come here and probably not the only one.

I'll be honest @angieram, I was a massive fan of signing Jacob, he'd long been the most impressive midfielder we'd come up against.

 

[curb]

1 hour ago, Rev said:

I'll be honest @angieram, I was a massive fan of signing Jacob, he'd long been the most impressive midfielder we'd come up against.

 

Oh, those heady days of watching a player like Butterfield bang in the goals that took us to the top of the championship.

wasn’t good enough for our lot though

 

[RoyMac5]

2 minutes ago, curb said:

Oh, those heady days of watching a player like Butterfield bang in the goals that took us to the top of the championship.

wasn’t good enough for our lot though

 

It was after that when questions were asked - was that good enough?

[curb]

Probably not good enough for Pearson or Rowett

[europia]

On 15/08/2021 at 17:00, 1967RAMS said:

The club’s debts massively outweigh its assets. Nobody will be stupid enough to pay anything for it. Mel will not recoup any of his massive outlay. I am pretty sure debts can’t just be written off by an owner any longer. I fail to see any option other than administration. Take the hit and just hope someone will buy us out of it and start afresh 

Sadly, as things drag on, with ever mounting problems, that outcome becomes more likely.