Is this our worst ever side ?

[Chris_Martin]

1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said:

if you chose to blame Rooney for that so be it. But Cocu did little with it either.

That could easily just suggest neither are very good managers.  

[BondJovi]

3 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

But not similar in the most important areas ie attack and defence. And although it was a 10th place the last (how many?) 7 games of the season were awful and continued into this season. As Paul Jewell found it can be very difficult to halt a slide and change players mentalities.

Those last 7 games were still significantly better than the last 7 Rooney has served up. By your own theory then, we should scrap Rooney.

[RoyMac5]

13 minutes ago, BondJovi said:

Those last 7 games were still significantly better than the last 7 Rooney has served up. By your own theory then, we should scrap Rooney.

Fine do that then. The next manager will have the same squad. Two managers so far, we going for a hat-trick. ?

[TheresOnlyWanChope]

5 hours ago, LeedsCityRam said:

As a collective team, the worst I've ever known (since 1987). I've seen worse collections of players, most notably 02-04 when we were seriously flirting with relegation, the 05/06 team which Westley rescued after the Phil Brown experiment & also the first couple of seasons under Clough when he was stabilising the mess from Jewell.

There is some serious talent in this squad...we finished 10th last year which is a more accurate reflection of our 'quality' when all firing & save for Martin (although Kazim has been good overall), there's been no noticeable downturn in quality. I dont accept a squad with Lawrence, Sibley, Jozwiak and quality loans like Clarke, Roberts & Edmundson should be anywhere near this level. Waghorn, Marshall & Byrne have all performed well at this level previously. Bird & Knight were the drivers of our renaissance just over a year ago...they now look lost & bereft of confidence.

The key problem is the manager. He is basically a 2021 version of Phil Brown. Big ego, terrible football, bizarre decisions & little affection for the club. 

I think there is a serious overestimation about the quality of current team. There isn't serious talent in this team. We have some good youngsters and one or two quality players but a lot are not performing. This is an average championship team. Our team 2 years ago had Mount Wilson Tomori Keogh Carson and we just achieved playoffs. Last season mid table and this season with a weaker squad we are struggling. Championship is competitive, its fine margins. It's not just the management. Loads of injuries this season and lack of depth. People just look at starting 11 and think oh that should be good enough, but it's more than that. How about players on form, how about people who can change the game from the bench? Options? What attackers do we have to give us options?  Benches from roughly Jan 19/20 and 21. 

Craig Bryson Alex Pearce Kelle Roos Duane Holmes Max LoweDavid Nugent Tom Huddlestone (2019)

Andre Wisdom Kieran Dowell Jack Marriott Kelle Roos Louie Sibley Max Bird Morgan Whittaker (last season)

Craig Forsyth Max Bird Louie Sibley Morgan Whittaker George Evans Kornell McDonald Kaide Gordon Jayden Mitchell-Lawson Bradley Foster (this season)

For the record, I hope coaching and management staff all go because I think are underperforming but the players are not good enough, consistent enough or dedicated enough. Nothing willl change without different players on the pitch.

[Rammy03]

1 hour ago, Chris_Martin said:

That could easily just suggest neither are very good managers.  

It most likely suggests that the players aren't good enough

[Chris_Martin]

11 minutes ago, Rammy03 said:

It most likely suggests that the players aren't good enough

not really as the players have proved themselves under other managers. Meanwhile Rooney has never proved himself as a manager, and Cocu has only ever been successful at one of the clubs he's managed. 

[LeedsCityRam]

30 minutes ago, TheresOnlyWanChope said:

I think there is a serious overestimation about the quality of current team. There isn't serious talent in this team. We have some good youngsters and one or two quality players but a lot are not performing. This is an average championship team. Our team 2 years ago had Mount Wilson Tomori Keogh Carson and we just achieved playoffs. Last season mid table and this season with a weaker squad we are struggling. Championship is competitive, its fine margins. It's not just the management. Loads of injuries this season and lack of depth. People just look at starting 11 and think oh that should be good enough

The bit in bold is exactly my point, we're an average side that should be looking at midtable. Not relying on Rotherham & Wendies to not finish 23rd. Hence the conclusion is gross mismanagement from the incumbent manager.

Re serious talent, would disagree. Lawrence, Sibley, Jozwiak would all command big fees & clearly Bielik would. Clarke & Roberts are still contracted to Prem clubs and Marshall is an international number 1 who is playing at a major tournament this summer. The top half of this division would be very interested in all at the right price.

Going back to your point re strength of depth, that is why we couldn't aim for top 6 at the start of the year, even with a competent manager. It is however not an acceptable reason for staring relegation in the face.

[Leeds Ram]

In terms of talent it's nowhere near our worst squad of even the last 20 years let alone ever. The Phil Brown year containing Poole and Holdsworth are still scarred deep into my poor memory. I'd also wager the first squad Burley had, and the teams from 08-2011 had less talent in them than this team has individually. On paper, the squad is a little thin but is basically a bang average mid-table championship squad with some top 6 players sprinkled in. There are options off the bench such as Sibley and Roberts (although attacking wise the best thing to do would be to start them as we did against blackburn) so it's not as if there is nothing Rooney can do. 

I do think this is the most poorly coached team since Phil Brown and the players have absolutely 0 desire, backbone or heart as a collective to get us out of this and those are the 2 primary problems that have led us to this point. The style of the play is consistently changing to the point we seem to be playing into the oppositions strengths... the formation and substitutions don't even make much sense anymore. I don't know what they work on the training pitch but it's clearly ineffective. It's not only this though. The players as a collective don't look like they give a damn. CKR smiling as he was missing a chance on the 85th minute, players not concentrating or jogging back- there was simply no sign of emotional frustration at the end of the game or during it as things took a turn for the worse. It's baffling to me as even the sky commentator seemed to show more passion for the club and what it meant than the players or the coaching team on the touchline. 

I can't remember the last time i disliked our team as much as I do atm, as a collective they're an absolute joke and deserve to know our anger and frustration either at the end of this season or if they remain at the beginning of the next one.  

[RebelScum]

Yes! I was pondering after the match yesterday that it has never been this bad (in my living memory). The financial situation (we came within seconds of being wound up) and subsequent relegation to the third tier of English football in 1984 is when I really started being passionate about Derby - there was so much fighting spirit!. And then the time of the 3 amigo's - well, it just doesn't seem as bad as it is now.

[Ted McMinn Football Genius]

Worst team in my 40 odd years and I base this on the lack of passion, desire, application and respect for us fans.
 

We are lacking leadership in every aspect of the team & I believe they miss us the 12th man.

They’ve failed so miserably because IMHO they’ve had a free pass because of the global pandemic and the situation we find ourselves in. Had we been allowed to attend the matches since March last year we could’ve made them aware of our feelings towards their lack of effort and shocking attitudes.

I would even go as far as to state that I believe Cocu would still be in charge had this pandemic not struck. 

[YouRams]

6 hours ago, cannable said:

That’s not effort, that’s hiding due to a total lack of confidence 

Could be right, but you’d think having a possible relegation on your CV would give you a kick up the arse to find something extra than we’re seeing.  

[YouRams]

8 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

Yet he's been ordinary recently and yesterday his first half was awful!

Agreed but it shows you how much of a mess we’re in that he’s still standing out. 

[Stockyram92]

Seeing a lot of comparisons to the 11 point season, but for me this side is far worse, everyone in 07/08 was clearly out of their depth in the Premier league, and that wasn't their fault, we'd recruited poorly.. despite getting a thrashing week in week out the season was largely entertaining, there was no pressure on us, we were rubbish and we all just accepted that, there was none of this sideways and backwards passing rubbish

 

This team however..  there's nothing entertaining about it, again we've recruited poorly, but there's not many players in the current side that you would say are out of their depth at championship level, this is the most frustrating team I've ever watched, there's more ability than whats being shown, but they look absolutely clueless! It looks effortless, spineless, there's no fight or passion whatsoever.. I think I saw more fight in the 11 point side..  in my honest opinion they would annihilate this current lot 

Edited May 2, 2021 by Stockyram92

[Chris_Martin]

3 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

Fine do that then. The next manager will have the same squad. Two managers so far, we going for a hat-trick. ?

it's not the quantity @RoyMac5, it's the quality. What matters is we get the correct one. 

[RoyMac5]

3 minutes ago, Chris_Martin said:

it's not the quantity @RoyMac5, it's the quality. What matters is we get the correct one. 

How long do you give them before you say, nope on to the next one?

[Jimbo Ram]

4 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

Fine do that then. The next manager will have the same squad. Two managers so far, we going for a hat-trick. ?

But why were you so vocal in wanting Cocu out yet so vocal in support of Rooney who has done worse? That is the contradiction you seem unable to explain Roy Mac 5 and why posters like me keep challenging you on as it is totally bizarre and illogical ?

[Chris_Martin]

10 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

Except he wasn't the worst, as Cocu took us to the very bottom!

The rot starts and hopefully will end, at the very top. Everything the manager is allowed to do comes from the top. We will get no change until Morris is gone. Name a worse owner?

Think you'll find Rooney has a worse record than Cocu actually

So your saying Mel is only allowing Rooney to play dire hoofball tactics?

Cocu took us to the bottom of the league yes, but after Saturday we will probably still be there when Rooney's had 3/4 of a season to change it!

[Chris_Martin]

7 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

How long do you give them before you say, nope on to the next one?

i'm pretty sure nearly 40 games in charge is enough time to at the very least show signs of hope & improvement. 

There have been no signs of progress, if anything we have just continuously got worse and worse

No identity or style of play, it's just set up to match every opponent and attempt to beat them at their own game, questionable substitutions, passive reactions to everything, no proactive thinking whatsoever. Shall i go on.....

Please tell me what you actually see are the positives from Rooney. 

[Van der MoodHoover]

3 minutes ago, Chris_Martin said:

i'm pretty sure nearly 40 games in charge is enough time to at the very least show signs of hope & improvement. 

There have been no signs of progress, if anything we have just continuously got worse and worse

No identity or style of play, it's just set up to match every opponent and attempt to beat them at their own game, questionable substitutions, passive reactions to everything, no proactive thinking whatsoever. Shall i go on.....

Please tell me what you actually see are the positives from Rooney. 

The logic appears to be that there is no judgement on Rooney and it is impossible to form one as it is all the players/Cocu /Mel Morris who have created such invidious circumstances and who are responsible for our position. 

I don't personally agree that Rooney et Al can be exonerated but I can accept that there are contributory factors that weren't there in many earlier managers stints. 

[TheresOnlyWanChope]

3 hours ago, LeedsCityRam said:

The bit in bold is exactly my point, we're an average side that should be looking at midtable. Not relying on Rotherham & Wendies to not finish 23rd. Hence the conclusion is gross mismanagement from the incumbent manager.

Re serious talent, would disagree. Lawrence, Sibley, Jozwiak would all command big fees & clearly Bielik would. Clarke & Roberts are still contracted to Prem clubs and Marshall is an international number 1 who is playing at a major tournament this summer. The top half of this division would be very interested in all at the right price.

Going back to your point re strength of depth, that is why we couldn't aim for top 6 at the start of the year, even with a competent manager. It is however not an acceptable reason for staring relegation in the face.

Big fees doesn’t always equal big talent. We have seen big money spent on players based on potential for example. It would be surprising if Lawrence commanded a big fee, he has largely been inconsistent. Sibley might do, he’s very young and shown he can cut it already in this league. Bielik yes but his injuries are getting concerning now. 
Injuries have been a massive factor all season we don’t seem to have many options. To be fair to Rooney, he doesn’t have the luxury of dropping under performers because there are a few areas that we don’t have adequate replacements.