Rammy03 Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 39 minutes ago, RamNut said: the biggest weakness of cocu for me was that he didn’t bring a scout and seems happy to go along with whatever the club decide to do recruitment-wise. That’s a real weakness. I like managers who demonstrate that they have good player judgement and a hit list of players that they want Maybe we need a director of football. But usually they pick the manager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scarlet Pimpernel Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 10 hours ago, Ambitious said: If you ever wanted an indication where Derby are at the moment: our under 23 team beat Leeds 7-1. When they swapped out half their first team for half their reserve team due to promotion and half our under 23s were promoted to our first team due to being crap, we lost 4-1. But that's the managers fault surely ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Contain Nuts Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 8 hours ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said: You make your own luck alpha,you know that! Which is, always has been and always will be one of the biggest loads of horseshit ever uttered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 31 minutes ago, Coconut said: Which is, always has been and always will be one of the biggest loads of horseshit ever uttered I completely disagree with you there coconut. Put yourself in the right place,at the right time and most of the time in life,you get the result you want. We have conceded goals and indeed not scored them by not putting the effort in the adhere to those basic principles. In my career Ive seen those who excelled by making sure they did so and those who never achieved what they wanted because they wouldn't make that last effort. It's just a lazy excuse to blame luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Contain Nuts Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 49 minutes ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said: I completely disagree with you there coconut. Put yourself in the right place,at the right time and most of the time in life,you get the result you want. We have conceded goals and indeed not scored them by not putting the effort in the adhere to those basic principles. In my career Ive seen those who excelled by making sure they did so and those who never achieved what they wanted because they wouldn't make that last effort. It's just a lazy excuse to blame luck. People get luck confused with chance. You can give yourself the absolute best chance possible of success (of course you criticise us for not always doing that) but once luck arrives to play its part all of that goes out of the window. Sometimes bad things happen despite all the best efforts of those involved. Sometimes it's a bit of both, not ideal planning but mixed with genuine bad luck. When Shaun Barker got injured against Forest, any other match, any other time he goes into that same challenge and comes out unscathed. I mean sure, he could have given himself a better chance of not getting injured by avoiding the challenge altogether, but he's a committed defender, it's his job. Are we saying that he can't blame luck, or at least if not blame luck, note how much of a part it played? Oh well Shaun, thanks for the memories but you make your own luck. Take George Thorne's injury problems and apply similar logic. There's obviously a cross-over, but to outright say that you control your own luck is baalocks. Chance can be controlled, luck cannot. Extreme examples! You're on a passenger flight to Spain when your plane drops out of the sky, pilot error, killing everyone on board... well you make your own luck, should have got got on a ferry! It's 3 June 2017, you're on a lovely day trip to London, doing a bit of sightseeing when a van drives into the couple next to you, a man gets out wielding a machete and stabs you to death.... well you make your own luck, should have visited Buckingham Palace instead! A young woman is assaulted by a complete strange when walking home, dragged down an alley.. she made her own luck though, wearing the short skirt and not paying for a taxi Lacerated by shrapnel at Manchester Arena? Well it was your choice to go and see Ariana Grande... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomG Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 Cocu is 'in', but it's looking less likely that a striker will be by the week end. Just waiting for the line 'We're going with what we have'! Really hope I'm wrong though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 49 minutes ago, Coconut said: People get luck confused with chance. You can give yourself the absolute best chance possible of success (of course you criticise us for not always doing that) but once luck arrives to play its part all of that goes out of the window. Sometimes bad things happen despite all the best efforts of those involved. Sometimes it's a bit of both, not ideal planning but mixed with genuine bad luck. When Shaun Barker got injured against Forest, any other match, any other time he goes into that same challenge and comes out unscathed. I mean sure, he could have given himself a better chance of not getting injured by avoiding the challenge altogether, but he's a committed defender, it's his job. Are we saying that he can't blame luck, or at least if not blame luck, note how much of a part it played? Oh well Shaun, thanks for the memories but you make your own luck. Take George Thorne's injury problems and apply similar logic. There's obviously a cross-over, but to outright say that you control your own luck is baalocks. Chance can be controlled, luck cannot. Extreme examples! You're on a passenger flight to Spain when your plane drops out of the sky, pilot error, killing everyone on board... well you make your own luck, should have got got on a ferry! It's 3 June 2017, you're on a lovely day trip to London, doing a bit of sightseeing when a van drives into the couple next to you, a man gets out wielding a machete and stabs you to death.... well you make your own luck, should have visited Buckingham Palace instead! A young woman is assaulted by a complete strange when walking home, dragged down an alley.. she made her own luck though, wearing the short skirt and not paying for a taxi Lacerated by shrapnel at Manchester Arena? Well it was your choice to go and see Ariana Grande... They are all poor irrelevant examples....(the last one in particularly bad taste mate,I'm surprised at you writing that) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rab a dab doo Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 My head spinning one thread says Cocu in and one says Cocu out. It sounds more like the 'Hokey Cokey' than a football forum. In out, in out shake him all about maybe the result will in improve now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Contain Nuts Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 13 minutes ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said: They are all poor irrelevant examples....(the last one in particularly bad taste mate,I'm surprised at you writing that) I'm arguing the general use of the phrase, not whether or not we were unlucky to concede a penalty in the 93rd minute against Preston or anything else that's happened under Cocu, so no, they're not irrelevant at all. You don't make your own luck. It's a nonsense cliche. I find it dismissive and potentially offensive. Report it to a moderator as offensive then? Let them decide. If I've gone too far, I've gone too far and I apologise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Durden Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 There's some confusion over the words luck and fate on here. Liverpool didn't win the Premiership title last season as they were lucky in the 38 games they played. The calibre of players they have in their side isn't luck. And so on. It's absolute piffle to suggest that luck has any bearing on our season or anyone elses and if you believe that then Cocu obviously uses a random number generator every game to pick his side. Which he may do looking at his team selections but that's another story. The examples that have been quoted are all down to fate but still totally detached from defining whether a football manager is successful or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCFC27 Posted October 1, 2020 Author Share Posted October 1, 2020 19 hours ago, Alpha said: We're not 3 games in. He was here last season. Its things like this that annoy me. You're putting an argument forward on people's behalf and then arguing against it. So, we're more like 60 games in. You assume everyone is happy with his signings? Well I would say... Bielik (not sure), Dowell (nope), Hamer (nope), Rooney (yep), Paterson (not really), Clarke (yep), Ter Wierik (not yet), Marshall (yep), Jozwiak (so far), Ibe (not sure), Duncan (not sure) ...so mixed for me. You bet everyone slating him now thought he was fantastic in January? Well, would you rather people slated him during that brief period? Or if we win the next 20 games do I have to remain critical to not be "flip flop"? "Why would anyone consider sacking him"... well, I mean I've been posting for weeks about what I consider rigid predictable play, negative team selection and subs, losing more than we win and conceding more than we score. A lack of creativity and mixed success in bringing players in. Those are the reasons to consider it. I'm not hoping he gets sacked but I think I've answered your question. The entire last paragraph is your opinion. I have no problem with you believing in that. I saw the same things said about Nigel Pearson. I saw the hype around Paul Clement. I saw the criticism of appointing McClaren (which I agreed with). I actually think what puts Derby in for a good future is our academy more than anything else. The money poured into it and the very good youth team. I don't assume great things are around the corner and I don't see why that's so hard to understand? To be honest you sound like you don’t disagree with me, you’re not calling for him to go? I’m not exactly ecstatic with the position we are in, the performances so far this season haven’t been good enough. However I feel it’s always been clear to see that Cocu won’t just pick teams to plug a gap, he’d rather stay loyal to his system and the way he wants us to play and eventually once he has the players he believes can play it he will get the results, last season we had players that didn’t fit the system and some player that did, he would rather work with the players that can so that they’re ready for when he has a full team that can play it. At the moment he still has most of the same problems despite signings coming in as the attackers he wants aren’t in/fit yet. Mainly there is no point in some here calling for his head on the basis of three poor results this season - give him time to work with Ibe Jozwiak and *striker* if by December we’re still coasting with no sign of improving then yeah consider his position but now just is the wrong time. As for people not able to see what he’s done so far, you can actually see a style of play and some attractive stuff with no end product at the moment, but as above it should come with the signings we’ve made. You also have to give Cocu and his staff credit for the youth coming through, he was brought in to blood these youngsters, he’s known exactly how to handle the transition from under 23s to first team almost seamlessly. He spends lots of time at their training sessions and with their coaches making sure they play the same style as us ready for the step up. He also knows when to pick them and when to drop them to get the most out of them. Everyone he has trusted so far has shone, you can’t tell me many other managers could have done this so seamlessly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 25 minutes ago, Coconut said: I'm arguing the general use of the phrase, not whether or not we were unlucky to concede a penalty in the 93rd minute against Preston or anything else that's happened under Cocu, so no, they're not irrelevant at all. You don't make your own luck. It's a nonsense cliche. I find it dismissive and potentially offensive. Report it to a moderator as offensive then? Let them decide. If I've gone too far, I've gone too far and I apologise. Coconut,I think you need to step back a bit and settle down. I'm not in the business of reporting people for offensive posts,I'm sure most of us can moderate ourselves with an allowance for making the odd faux par. I doubt you are pleased with using that example yourself in hindsite,it's not really appropriate mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Durden Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 10 minutes ago, DCFC27 said: To be honest you sound like you don’t disagree with me, you’re not calling for him to go? I’m not exactly ecstatic with the position we are in, the performances so far this season haven’t been good enough. However I feel it’s always been clear to see that Cocu won’t just pick teams to plug a gap, he’d rather stay loyal to his system and the way he wants us to play and eventually once he has the players he believes can play it he will get the results, last season we had players that didn’t fit the system and some player that did, he would rather work with the players that can so that they’re ready for when he has a full team that can play it. At the moment he still has most of the same problems despite signings coming in as the attackers he wants aren’t in/fit yet. Mainly there is no point in some here calling for his head on the basis of three poor results this season - give him time to work with Ibe Jozwiak and *striker* if by December we’re still coasting with no sign of improving then yeah consider his position but now just is the wrong time. As for people not able to see what he’s done so far, you can actually see a style of play and some attractive stuff with no end product at the moment, but as above it should come with the signings we’ve made. You also have to give Cocu and his staff credit for the youth coming through, he was brought in to blood these youngsters, he’s known exactly how to handle the transition from under 23s to first team almost seamlessly. He spends lots of time at their training sessions and with their coaches making sure they play the same style as us ready for the step up. He also knows when to pick them and when to drop them to get the most out of them. Everyone he has trusted so far has shone, you can’t tell me many other managers could have done this so seamlessly. I've picked out 2 salient points in your post. I can see a style of play and it's an unattractive, dour, rigid one with no end product. And the last point you make is absurd as it's impossible to prove or disprove so why even state it - of course unless its to add fake substance to your weak argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jram Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 Football is very random, luck plays a massive part in it Anyone with half a brain cell would tell you that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Durden Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 2 minutes ago, Jram said: Football is very random, luck plays a massive part in it Anyone with half a brain cell would tell you that What's your point? Are you saying that Liverpool had 38 lucky games last season? If you flip a coin ten times you might get heads every time but if you flip a coin infinitesimally I guarantee you will get 50% heads and 50% tails. If you use such a minute sampling period as one match then luck might have a large bearing on the outcome but most sensible people look at the course of the season as a true indicator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Spalding Ram Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 16 hours ago, Coconut said: It's not as bad as "When Brian Clough was in charge...' though Anyway..........Brian Howard Clough on lucky players. “Good managers make good sides. There’s no such thing as a side making a manager” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Contain Nuts Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 30 minutes ago, Old Spalding Ram said: Anyway..........Brian Howard Clough on lucky players. “Good managers make good sides. There’s no such thing as a side making a manager” ..but poor managers sometimes make good sides - Phil Brown @ Hull City; Aidy Boothroyd @ Watford; Roy Keane @ Sunderland ...and good managers sometimes make poor sides - a large proportion of all managerial appointments gone wrong, ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRBee Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 23 hours ago, SFox1993 said: Im basing this more on match day experiences listening to people inside the ground. Attitudes of people on social media. Not necessarily on this forum which i dont believe i actually said at any point. Either way ? COYR! "our fans as a collective" means all fans , or perhaps you didn't mean what you posted.. And in any case I don't get the same impression from the part of the ground where my season ticket is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minesahartington Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 3 hours ago, Coconut said: Which is, always has been and always will be one of the biggest loads of horseshit ever uttered Gary Player once said.. “ it’s funny but the more I practice the luckier I get” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rynny Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 1 hour ago, Tyler Durden said: if you flip a coin infinitesimally I guarantee you will get 50% heads and 50% tails. Tossing a coin will give you a 51-49 ratio towards the side you have facing up when you toss it. If you spin a coin it is more likely to land on tails than heads as the heads side of the coin is slightly heavier than the tails side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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