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Cocu in!


DCFC27

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1 minute ago, Tyler Durden said:

Am not trying to be argumentative and this is going slightly off topic but if we compare our spend on players over the last couple of seasons to Luton or Blackburn then in the next breath I'm being told that they have better players than us. If that's true then it's an absolute disgrace. 

Yes but aren't most of our expensive players unfit? (Lawrence, Bielik, Waghorn). Do you think our youngsters would have got in Tony Mowbrays team?

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3 minutes ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

Yes but aren't most of our expensive players unfit? (Lawrence, Bielik, Waghorn). Do you think our youngsters would have got in Tony Mowbrays team?

I'll rephrase that slightly then if you compare the wage bill at Derby to that at Luton or Blackburn and we are getting turned over comprehensively by those sides then something is drastically wrong somewhere with the recruitment and the player management or both.

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The OP is a good one. I’ve made my doubts about Cocu clear, but I do think it’s only fair we let him get a bit further into the season before we start making rash judgements about him. We have, quite rightly, made a fair few signings this summer in order to rebuild the squad. Players always take a bit of time to settle in and adapt to the style of play, so we’ve got to be a little bit patient with them. That doesn’t mean we should be accepting results like we got on Saturday, but it does mean we should probably give Cocu a couple of months to see what he can do with this squad before we start calling for his head.

Maybe the end of November would be a good time to start considering the progress we’ve made. Until then, unless we continue being as drastically bad as we were on Saturday and need an immediate change, I will remain Cocu in - despite my doubts. He can’t keep hiding behind a “long term plan” though. We still need short term results, and we also need to see evidence of progress in our performances. Last season you could excuse a couple of poor results, because the squad we had available was very weak. Now though, I think the recruitment job has for once done a very good job this window, after my heavy criticism in recent years, and has delivered a squad that should be able to challenge top 6. No excuses this season, if we’re not at least in the top half making a challenge, then Cocu must go.

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6 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

I'll rephrase that slightly then if you compare the wage bill at Derby to that at Luton or Blackburn and we are getting turned over comprehensively by those sides then something is drastically wrong somewhere with the recruitment and the player management or both.

I doubt the team we fielded (Rooney apart) had wages above Luton or Blackburn.

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6 minutes ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

Yes but only if they are fit to play..............blimey we are going in circles ?

But surely if a club has a huge wage bill then the drop down from the regular first teamers isn't so great as you have a huge squad to choose and that's why your wage bill is so high. Some of the wealthy Premiership teams can put out reserve sides that are equally as competitive as another teams first string 11.

So something isn't right somewhere if we are paying a huge wage bill have a few injuries and we are getting turned over by Luton or Blackburn who have a fraction of our wage bill irrevelant of players available.

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50 minutes ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

Jourdan, of course a good manager can make a team better, no argument. What I would argue however is that there is a point where good managers cannot overcome the difference in the disparity. In the example you use and flipping it the other way I would not expect any of our youngsters to get a game for Preston, Blackburn or Reading. They would or should be in the Barrow team though I would say. 

It seems we wont come to an agreement on this so maybe we just respect each others view and maybe we will agree on something else.

You are absolutely right. I think the likes of Luton, Rotherham, Wycombe, Barnsley and in this instance Sheff Wed are up against it in trying to beat their circumstances.

I don’t think any of those clubs will put their manager under any undue pressure this season or would react in the same way to the current run we are on.

I am not convinced about your point about our youngsters, mind you.

Our under 18s have won the Premier League and our under 19s have competed in the UEFA Youth League in the recent past. We have had three Academy graduates sign for PL clubs in the last 18 months.

Our young players are coming through a system with much greater pedigree and resources compared to the aforementioned clubs.

Take Tyrhys Dolan. He is 18 and joined Blackburn from Preston without a first team appearance to his name. Now he is starting and impressing for Blackburn.

If Dolan can be plucked from nowhere and do that, why wouldn’t more experienced and more highly rated youngsters in Bird and Sibley be given game time at these clubs?

I think Mowbray, Neil and Paunovic would be rubbing their hands together at having such players at their disposal.

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1 hour ago, Jourdan said:

This would be a fair point if we were playing in the Premier League.

But the resources Cocu has for a club at Championship level are plentiful.

There is an argument that better players make a better team, but an equally valid argument is that a good manager can also make a team better.

Look at the opposition we have faced in recent weeks.

How many Luton players would you have? How many Preston players would you have?  How many Blackburn or Reading players would you have? How many Barrow players would you have?

From one to eleven, the opposition haven’t been superior. But how the manager has set them up to play and get the better of us certainly has.

I think our squad is a strong one, with everyone fit off the top of my head I might put it somewhere from 6th to 12th but I’m not going to sit here and rate them because I can’t really be bothered ?

But our squad right now, less the players out? I think it is pretty crap or rather the balance of it is pretty crap.

The defence is passable, a lot depends on MTW who currently looks shaky but will hopefully settle. 

The midfield I feel is missing the absolute key component of the whole squad let alone just that area of the pitch. I think Bielik is a game changer for the whole team because I think it will allow us to cover all those holes in the team, he can transition the play from defence to attack, he can win the ball back - I don’t think we concede even any of the goals on Saturday if he is there. People say he wasn’t much good before his injury but I completely disagree with that.

Then in the forward line we are missing our three top scorers from last season, two injured and one released which may have been his decision or may have been that the club couldn’t offer him favourable terms, probably somewhere in between. A soft embargo / lack of cash / other FFP issues have stopped us replacing up to this point but hopefully soon. Lawrence and Waghorn are huge misses.

I don’t know much about Luton’s XI but I would doubt it is better than ours, but that game is a small sample side from which to judge and was pretty even. Reading’s and Blackburn’s are definitely comparable - Moore, Richards, Swift, Ejaria, Joao, Lenihan, Holtby, Rothwell, Armstrong, Dolan I believe would all improve the XI we are currently putting out in different ways. 

In general I don’t think injuries are much of an excuse most of the time, managers and squads have to deal with them.

But how many squads deal with their best DM, winger and CF all missing. Would McClarens 13-15 team deal with it? No we saw it couldn’t. Would Leeds have been good last season without Phillips, Bamford and Harrison? Fulham without Cairney, Decordova and Mitrovic? Probably not, but that’s the situation we’re in now and injury situation like that don’t come along often but it’s what we are in now.

No one is saying we’ve been good but the injuries are an issue. They’re all key players. One we might miss but get by without, but all three (plus not yet replacing Martin) and it’s a different ball game entirely. 

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1 hour ago, nottingram said:

...

If injuries and the loss of players were such an insurmountable issue, then surely you have to admit pre season and the transfer window have been handled very poorly by the club.

Bielik was ruled out in January. Lawrence was injured during the Leeds game back in July. Martin left at the end of July. Holmes gets injured multiple times in a season.

For me, the only injury that has realistically blindsided us is Waghorn’s, because he usually has a good and reliable fitness record and he broke down half way through pre-season.

Everything else was possible to anticipate and respond to. We had the time.

So, injuries are a problem. So why have we then just signed two players who haven’t kicked a ball in anger in months and won’t be ready to play for 4-6 weeks? Why have we frozen out a perfectly fit and able player with Championship experience? 

Surely instead of Ibe and Duncan, we would have identified players who could come in and make an immediate impact and alleviate the strain of injuries if we expected to struggle so much?

OK, if we accept the injuries are a crippling issue, how do we excuse the lack of forward planning and strategic decision making since the end of July?

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10 hours ago, DCFC27 said:

This is getting ridiculous now, the performances aren’t good enough but why on earth would anyone consider sacking him after he’s brought 7 new players in this season?

1) Why are people happy with his signings but don’t want to give him time to bed them in?! The squad is completely different to the one we had 12 months ago...

2) We are 3 games in... 3! Jesus Mary and Joseph give the guy until at least the back end of November before we call for his head. I bet everyone slating him on here are the same flip flop supporters that thought he was fantastic after January but wanted him sacked this time last year. 
 

He’s not a 1 season wonder manager, he’s a manager with a plan for the club as a whole, with a process to embed and philosophy to build, it might be a painful couple of seasons but where has going through managers like we have done got us in the past. Even if he doesn’t get us up himself, at least with Cocu he will leave the club better than he found it and the next manager might have a better chance. Nigel Clough springs to mind. 

I wouldn't want to see Philip Cocu sacked, and I don't see him resigning (not yet at least).

Just to say, on the first point, some may remember Paul Jewell brought in a lot of new players (more than 7), but that wasn't justification to keep him at the club.

Most supporters realise that Cocu is a long term appointment, but if after season 3 or 4, it's glaringly obvious that the slow build, possession game isn't working in the championship, it's back to the drawing board (yet again). In reality though, the club probably can't / wont wait that long. 

 

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30 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

If injuries and the loss of players were such an insurmountable issue, then surely you have to admit pre season and the transfer window have been handled very poorly by the club.

Bielik was ruled out in January. Lawrence was injured during the Leeds game back in July. Martin left at the end of July. Holmes gets injured multiple times in a season.

For me, the only injury that has realistically blindsided us is Waghorn’s, because he usually has a good and reliable fitness record and he broke down half way through pre-season.

Everything else was possible to anticipate and respond to. We had the time.

So, injuries are a problem. So why have we then just signed two players who haven’t kicked a ball in anger in months and won’t be ready to play for 4-6 weeks? Why have we frozen out a perfectly fit and able player with Championship experience? 

Surely instead of Ibe and Duncan, we would have identified players who could come in and make an immediate impact and alleviate the strain of injuries if we expected to struggle so much?

OK, if we accept the injuries are a crippling issue, how do we excuse the lack of forward planning and strategic decision making since the end of July?

 

$$$

Bielik cost a lot of money, we're not going to sign anyone else permanently in that position (Rooney notwithstanding, who'd already 'signed') so you're looking at a loan to cover his absence. Good loan players come with a loan fee, plus some wages, if we can't pay a loan fee we we're not going to get the replacement we want. $$$

It's not like we've been under a transfer embargo or anything, or that we're facing an appeal. We couldn't fully know what our financial situation was going to be, which makes things more difficult (not impossible, but...) $$$

Lawrence we expected would be a short term issue, we were wrong. Quite what's happened there we don't know because the club haven't bothered to communicate it to us, which is bad. Same for Waghorn, the lack of communication is inexcusably poor here..

Even so, are we supposed to have loaned in someone of equivalent ability for those two? You can't do 30 day loans a anymore, so a loan to cover Waghorn & Lawrence would have to be for 6 months, and cost a loan fee, and wages... $$$

Why sign players who aren't ready to play? Maybe because we've spent a good sum on Jozwiak?  We had to wait longer than we wanted to sign Jozwiak, who's price increased after some good International appearances. Remember we wanted him back in January, and he'd have been cheaper (but... transfer embargo!) so that comes down to... $$$

Other clubs have got too be willing to sell us their players. If they aren't we go down the free agent route. If we go down the free agent route we end up picking up players who haven't played for a while...

Maybe we as a club are willing to put up with some short term pain because we think Ibe & Duncan will be a significant long term gain?

"Why have we frozen out a perfectly fit and able player with Championship experience" I dunno, ask Lampard. Why did we freeze out Anya, also a a perfectly fit and able player with Championship experience? I dunno, ask McClaren, Rowett, Wassall, Lampard & Cocu? (that one definitely did seem to be about $$$ tbf)

Criticising the club's forward planning is valid, of course, it's why we've ended up in the position we have, but hopefully that's a historical issue. It's not a situation I feel we could have dealt with much differently in the past 2-3 months.

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42 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

If injuries and the loss of players were such an insurmountable issue, then surely you have to admit pre season and the transfer window have been handled very poorly by the club.

Bielik was ruled out in January. Lawrence was injured during the Leeds game back in July. Martin left at the end of July. Holmes gets injured multiple times in a season.

For me, the only injury that has realistically blindsided us is Waghorn’s, because he usually has a good and reliable fitness record and he broke down half way through pre-season.

Everything else was possible to anticipate and respond to. We had the time.

So, injuries are a problem. So why have we then just signed two players who haven’t kicked a ball in anger in months and won’t be ready to play for 4-6 weeks? Why have we frozen out a perfectly fit and able player with Championship experience? 

Surely instead of Ibe and Duncan, we would have identified players who could come in and make an immediate impact and alleviate the strain of injuries if we expected to struggle so much?

OK, if we accept the injuries are a crippling issue, how do we excuse the lack of forward planning and strategic decision making since the end of July?

Maybe you subscribe to that way of thinking - but please explain how any of it is Cocu’s fault if so?

Also the small matter of an embargo which can help to explain some of the issues I would imagine

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23 minutes ago, Coconut said:

Criticising the club's forward planning is valid, of course, it's why we've ended up in the position we have, but hopefully that's a historical issue. It's not a situation I feel we could have dealt with much differently in the past 2-3 months.

I just don’t agree with your ‘Poor, helpless Derby’ narrative. You seem to want to absolve the club of responsibility for anything.

At the end of the day, whichever way you dress it up, these struggles we are having are self-induced and could have been resolved by better decision making by key people at the club. Not just Cocu, but from top to bottom.

Injuries, you can’t control, yes. But, planning and accounting for them, you absolutely can.

 

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22 minutes ago, nottingram said:

Maybe you subscribe to that way of thinking - but please explain how any of it is Cocu’s fault if so?

Also the small matter of an embargo which can help to explain some of the issues I would imagine

Cocu is the manager of the club. Surely as the manager, you would be in constant dialogue with key people at the club and making it clear what your priorities and needs are?

And if you have an injury crisis, surely you would be getting on at the board to help you address it?

The embargo was a soft one, so it didn’t stop us in our tracks completely, did it?

We have still been able to be active in the market.

There are always solutions. The reality is the key people at the club just have not delivered them.

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3 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

But surely if a club has a huge wage bill then the drop down from the regular first teamers isn't so great as you have a huge squad to choose and that's why your wage bill is so high. Some of the wealthy Premiership teams can put out reserve sides that are equally as competitive as another teams first string 11.

So something isn't right somewhere if we are paying a huge wage bill have a few injuries and we are getting turned over by Luton or Blackburn who have a fraction of our wage bill irrevelant of players available.

Man City 2 - 5 Leicester

Hoffenheim 4 - 1 Bayern Munich

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14 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

Cocu is the manager of the club. Surely as the manager, you would be in constant dialogue with key people at the club and making it clear what your priorities and needs are?

And if you have an injury crisis, surely you would be getting on at the board to help you address it?

The embargo was a soft one, so it didn’t stop us in our tracks completely, did it?

We have still been able to be active in the market.

There are always solutions. The reality is the key people at the club just have not delivered them.

Yeah like when he wanted a winger and a centre back in January, but the club couldn’t or wouldn’t get them for him. He can say he wants stuff but there’s no guarantee he’s going to get it.

We had a soft embargo until we were cleared of charges. One in one out and up to a maximum of £12k pw in wages. From memory Marshall and MTW came in then, gaps we clearly felt we could fill under those conditions. Clearly Jozwiak was target number one and they felt he was worth waiting for - why would you then get a player in to cover Lawrence / Waghorn for a few weeks or Bielik for a few months and be left with too large a squad once players return. Those are short term decisions that could hamstring a club for a while. This is all I’m saying - let him be judged on working with the best players in the squad. He’s signed up for a long term project, I don’t want us to abandon that for short term decisions but I also want the manager to be judged fairly and that is with his best players available, if possible. One being out might be fine, but any more than that and any coach of any team in the world is going to struggle unless you can carry a large squad - we can’t. 

If, once we have some of those players back and we are still struggling it’s a different discussion. He can then, I feel, be judged on his performance relative to the abilities of the squad. Currently I think he’s being judged relative to the abilities of a strong squad he can’t pick the best players from.

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42 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

I just don’t agree with your ‘Poor, helpless Derby’ narrative. You seem to want to absolve the club of responsibility for anything.

...and yet I've just criticised their handling of the Lawrence & Waghorn injury situations. The other day I said the signing of Rooney was a healdine stunt gone wrong. In the post above I criticised our past dealings in the transfer market which have lead us to this point, the subtext to which is a criticism of the chairman's flip flopping between managerial styles.

So, no, not everything. I just don't feel the need to bang on about mistakes and, there are bloody well enough dissenting voices already, what's the point in just adding to the din?

That said, as a supporter the very least you're suppposed to do is give the club, the manager & the players the benefit of the doubt, part of being a supporter is, yes,  making excuses for things as far as is reasonably possible and at least trying to understand the logic behind decisions made, both on and off the pitch.

Otherwise why even bother?

Sure, question things and apportion blame where appropriate, but if your default mindset is to pick fault and you write off any and all valid reasons for things as an excuse? I simply don't see the point of being like that, although maybe it's not a choice, if that's how your brain works.

Just like how I'll probably always end up taking a a stance against the popularist view, I'll put in the hard yards taking the unpopular side of the argument, go against the grain and other cliches.

 

36 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

Cocu is the manager of the club. Surely as the manager, you would be in constant dialogue with key people at the club and making it clear what your priorities and needs are?

And if you have an injury crisis, surely you would be getting on at the board to help you address it?

The embargo was a soft one, so it didn’t stop us in our tracks completely, did it?

We have still been able to be active in the market.

There are always solutions. The reality is the key people at the club just have not delivered them.

 

So many assumptions, so little time.

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43 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

I just don’t agree with your ‘Poor, helpless Derby’ narrative. You seem to want to absolve the club of responsibility for anything.

At the end of the day, whichever way you dress it up, these struggles we are having are self-induced and could have been resolved by better decision making by key people at the club. Not just Cocu, but from top to bottom.

Injuries, you can’t control, yes. But, planning and accounting for them, you absolutely can.

 

Sometimes, calculated risk taking just doesn't work out.

I suspect, based on no factual knowledge at all, that we are cash constrained and cannot have 2-3 experienced players for each position to cover all possible contingencies.

Therefore we've taken a few risks. And there is an element of luck if they all work against us. 

I also think that Rooney needs dropping. We do lack pace and particularly in the spine but i think cocu needs to send a powerful message that nobody is above the team.

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Call me a conspiracy theorist, but maybe Lawrence and or Waghorn are to be sold imminently and their injuries are just a cover up, Waghorn is on big money and only has a year left on his deal so it wouldn't surprise me. We have signed Jozwiak and Ibe and bringing in a striker, so if Waghorn went it wouldn't be a big surprise. Lawrence I doubt we would sell but you never know. 

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