Cocu in!

[Tyler Durden]

2 minutes ago, 24Charlie said:

Should we just come on here every day and state the date and league position. Nuff said see you tomorrow when we just confirm that because there were no matches there is no change to the league position but the date has, in fact, changed.

I didn't propose that for a minute. I did say substantiate a debate with hard facts and data rather then use a subjective personal opinion and then try to progress that as some kind of cod truism.

[Ibby]

[DRBee]

On 29/09/2020 at 09:34, SFox1993 said:

Personally I think since Mac 1 and that wonderful season where we was unfortunate to lose to QPR , our fans as a collective have expected/demanded success. That season everything had aligned , we had the players , we had the style of play.

Since then we have sacked that very manager not once but twice , as well as loads of others.

During that time we have wasted money on players who were either any of the following 

1. Played out of position
2. Signed after a purple patch
3. Signed and had decent performances but unfortunately the fee we paid was far too high

Now since that playoff final we have made the playoffs a few times , but we have done so either by signing players for the short term ( Huddlestone , Davies etc ) , or by loaning players who we had no chance of signing afterwards ( Mount , Tomori ).

What we need is a long term manager , one that is willing to stick with the club even if there are hard times ( Even those of you who are Cocu out must admit he had a horrific hand last season and the embargo didnt help recruitment at the start of this window).

Cocu is laying the groundwork , signing players who will either do one of the following

1. Cheap signing to plug a hole at decent value ( Byrne , Marshall )
2. Young signing who can improve and help the team and be sold for significantly more than we signed them for ( Bielik , Joswiak)

He is also bringing through the youth into the first team fold , obviously players like knight and bird had been spotted before , but both have become first team regulars now , who would have thought bird would be a first team regular who looks so assured after Villa away under Lampard ?

It's his management and integration of these youth players that is so good , everyone knew sibley would be a star but personally i think he has had his game time limited last season to ensure he was ready.

 

In short , yes the performances are not great at the moment by any account. But we need stability at this club , cocu has been proven previously at a club who has a great academy ( like we do ) that if given time he can get great results. If its still this bad come christmas once all the players are back from injury and the last couple of signings have come in , then fair enough but the amount of knee jerking going off at the moment is the very reason why we are in the mess we are at the moment although before it was the owner and not the fans doing the knee jerking.

Cocu well and truly IN!

Like many you mistakenly say "our fans as a collective have expected/demanded success. "

That simply is not true. If you take the trouble to read posts quite a few of us say they do not demand/expect

promotion and many say that it is quality of football played and style of football that counts. 

On the latter , Cocu fails I am afraid. A failing set up is not stable by definition.

 

[SFox1993]

1 hour ago, DRBee said:

Like many you mistakenly say "our fans as a collective have expected/demanded success. "

That simply is not true. If you take the trouble to read posts quite a few of us say they do not demand/expect

promotion and many say that it is quality of football played and style of football that counts. 

On the latter , Cocu fails I am afraid. A failing set up is not stable by definition.

 

Im basing this more on match day experiences listening to people inside the ground. Attitudes of people on social media. Not necessarily on this forum which i dont believe i actually said at any point. Either way ?  COYR!

[Alph]

On 29/09/2020 at 08:52, DCFC27 said:

This is getting ridiculous now, the performances aren’t good enough but why on earth would anyone consider sacking him after he’s brought 7 new players in this season?

1) Why are people happy with his signings but don’t want to give him time to bed them in?! The squad is completely different to the one we had 12 months ago...

2) We are 3 games in... 3! Jesus Mary and Joseph give the guy until at least the back end of November before we call for his head. I bet everyone slating him on here are the same flip flop supporters that thought he was fantastic after January but wanted him sacked this time last year. 
 

He’s not a 1 season wonder manager, he’s a manager with a plan for the club as a whole, with a process to embed and philosophy to build, it might be a painful couple of seasons but where has going through managers like we have done got us in the past. Even if he doesn’t get us up himself, at least with Cocu he will leave the club better than he found it and the next manager might have a better chance. Nigel Clough springs to mind. 

We're not 3 games in. He was here last season. Its things like this that annoy me. 

You're putting an argument forward on people's behalf and then arguing against it. 

So, we're more like 60 games in.

You assume everyone is happy with his signings? Well I would say...

Bielik (not sure), Dowell (nope), Hamer (nope), Rooney (yep), Paterson (not really), Clarke (yep), Ter Wierik (not yet), Marshall (yep), Jozwiak (so far), Ibe (not sure), Duncan (not sure)

...so mixed for me. 

You bet everyone slating him now thought he was fantastic in January? Well, would you rather people slated him during that brief period? Or if we win the next 20 games do I have to remain critical to not be "flip flop"?

"Why would anyone consider sacking him"... well, I mean I've been posting for weeks about what I consider rigid predictable play, negative team selection and subs, losing more than we win and conceding more than we score. A lack of creativity and mixed success in bringing players in. Those are the reasons to consider it. I'm not hoping he gets sacked but I think I've answered your question.

The entire last paragraph is your opinion. I have no problem with you believing in that. I saw the same things said about Nigel Pearson. I saw the hype around Paul Clement. I saw the criticism of appointing McClaren (which I agreed with). 

I actually think what puts Derby in for a good future is our academy more than anything else. The money poured into it and the very good youth team. 

I don't assume great things are around the corner and I don't see why that's so hard to understand?

[Alph]

This thread... 3 games, 3 games, 3 games....

I'm forming an opinion based on his entire time here. I wish people would stop telling me I'm forming it on 3 games. I'm forming it based in when we had Waghorn, Lawrence, Holmes etc. 

And we've played 5 games this season. The cup games count. 

[Rab a dab doo]

Is he in or out ? 

Poor old Cocu's been played about like a 'fiddler's elbow'. 

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

He's out on the in thread and in on the out thread.

[May Contain Nuts]

54 minutes ago, Alpha said:

This thread... 3 games, 3 games, 3 games....

I'm forming an opinion based on his entire time here. I wish people would stop telling me I'm forming it on 3 games. I'm forming it based in when we had Waghorn, Lawrence, Holmes etc. 

And we've played 5 games this season. The cup games count. 

That annoys me too sometimes, I see people say it and my heart sinks because I know it's got a very easy defence & counterpoint. It ends up weakening the argument on behalf of everyone else!

When we had all those players plus Martin we finished 10th, scored in 12 consecutive games and won 5 in a row in the league / won 11 out of 19 total  from Jan-July. We didn't win all of those matches playing terrible football (yes, some we scraped through!), there were some genuinely decent performances.

Obviously minus Martin (& Lowe, Bogle) that would have brought fewer points, and that remains a big worry looking at our squad at the minute. Add Jozwiak & Ibe to that team though, replace Martin (fingers crossed) and there's no reason to think that we can't still improve on last season, is there? It'll be a tough ask given our start, but nothing is insurmountable at this stage.

Although 'talk is cheap' as Dimmu put it, there have been signs this season that we are trying to play at a quicker tempo, be a little more direct and play higher up the pitch but it's been totally undermined by our defending and attitude to closing down, which is another genuine worry.

Where '3 games' or 5 games, or whatever comes into it is that some people aren't allowing any changes we've made since last season to bear fruit, they're writing off the impact of returning players, dismissing new signings before they're even here because they can't shake off a year's worth of cynicism disappointment.

They're worried about giving it time because we've made such a poor start, which is perfectly understandable. I'm worried too, I don't think anybody isn't worried.

[Alph]

I can't imagine him getting sacked and finding any enthusiasm about a new manager. We must have had 4 or 5 game changing managers and the game looks the same. 

I think Cocu was the most exciting appointment since... my life i think. 

Lampard was fun but I thought it would be a car crash to be honest. 

[Alph]

3 minutes ago, Coconut said:

That annoys me too sometimes, I see people say it and my heart sinks because I know it's got a very easy defence & counterpoint. It ends up weakening the argument on behalf of everyone else!

When we had all those players plus Martin we finished 10th, scored in 12 consecutive games and won 5 in a row in the league / won 11 out of 19 total  from Jan-July. We didn't win all of those matches playing terrible football (yes, some we scraped through!), there were some genuinely decent performances.

Obviously minus Martin (& Lowe, Bogle) that would have brought fewer points, and that remains a big worry looking at our squad at the minute. Add Jozwiak & Ibe to that team though, replace Martin (fingers crossed) and there's no reason to think that we can't still improve on last season, is there? It'll be a tough ask given our start, but nothing is insurmountable at this stage.

Although 'talk is cheap' as Dimmu put it, there have been signs this season that we are trying to play at a quicker tempo, be a little more direct and play higher up the pitch but it's been totally undermined by our defending and attitude to closing down, which is another genuine worry.

Where '3 games' or 5 games, or whatever comes into it is that some people aren't allowing any changes we've made since last season to bear fruit, they're writing off the impact of returning players, dismissing new signings before they're even here because they can't shake off a year's worth of cynicism disappointment.

They're worried about giving it time because we've made such a poor start, which is perfectly understandable. I'm worried too, I don't think anybody isn't worried.

I think that's the best counter argument to my moaning. Not "it's only 3 games" but to point out a couple of games where we have adapted to more Championship level style. 

And the good form last season. And the PSV record

I don't think Cocu is some hopeless dreamer. Or some bad coach or tactician

I genuinely believe, as a critic, that the footballing culture we have here... the energy, the pace, the amount of games, the physicality, the hoofing etc etc have pissed on his tactics. I think he is suited to the more cultured (why do we have that word to describe a style) approach. The more stand off-ish defending, the smarter plays and much much better technical players. Bringing him, LVG and De Boer here is the same contrast as sticking Dyche and Andy Carroll in La Liga

It's not that he can't adapt. It's just a different level of player and a very physical league. 

But I could be wrong and when the players are all fit etc we might start firing. 

One thing I do agree is that its too soon to sack him. But not too soon to form an opinion of him and how you think it will go for him. And there's the fun in our debates. 

I do think when he has had a full squad to pick from (and I don't mean just for 1 game) that if there's no improvement in how we play on last season then the fan pressure on him will be justified.

[Curtains]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

This thread... 3 games, 3 games, 3 games....

I'm forming an opinion based on his entire time here. I wish people would stop telling me I'm forming it on 3 games. I'm forming it based in when we had Waghorn, Lawrence, Holmes etc. 

And we've played 5 games this season. The cup games count. 

Yes and one Cup game the ref gave a Penalty to win the opposition the game even though the ball hit Buchanan on the head 

[dabber]

And it is interesting that in order to bring all that "culture" together we appear to need the comeback of a combative Polish lad and the arrival of a big burly Turkish German. It is just down to getting the balance right. You have to be able and willing to compete. Mac1 used to bang on about "earning the right to play" and I hope that the return / introduction of these more combative (but hopefully sufficiently skillful) types will achieve that.

[AutoWindscreens]

9 minutes ago, Alpha said:

One thing I do agree is that its too soon to sack him. But not too soon to form an opinion of him and how you think it will go for him. And there's the fun in our debates. 

Wait, what ... this is fun?

[Topram]

I may be wrong here but Norwich had a poor start to the season didn’t they under Farke, fans wanted him out then they won the league. I’m just pointing it out as they were in a similar position to us.

They had a young squad mixed in with a few players from abroad, took them a little time to gel and mix and it worked out well for them, not saying it will for us but if Farke was sacked that season after 5/6 games then they’d of never got near the top never mind winning it.

That doesn’t mean it’ll work like that for us but Jozwaik has been brought in a good prospect, it looks like we are close to a striker, Ibe will be fit in a few weeks Bielik isn’t miles off being back, Cocu needs time with these players, this has been his first real window where he’s managed to over haul the squad and bring in some of his own players, it won’t work over night it’s a 4 year project this is only just going into the second year, I’m sure when his signings bed in and everyone’s fit we will see much better results!

[Andicis]

12 minutes ago, Topram said:

I may be wrong here but Norwich had a poor start to the season didn’t they under Farke, fans wanted him out then they won the league. I’m just pointing it out as they were in a similar position to us.

I can't believe we're still doing Farke examples. They lost 3 of their first 5, but to Leeds, WBA and Sheff Utd, all of which were top 6. I'd wager money Luton won't be up there in the top 6. Nor Reading. 

[SaintRam]

11 minutes ago, Andicis said:

I can't believe we're still doing Farke examples. They lost 3 of their first 5, but to Leeds, WBA and Sheff Utd, all of which were top 6. I'd wager money Luton won't be up there in the top 6. Nor Reading. 

Luton lost 2 of their last 15 games after Nathan Jones went back last season - or 3 of their last 18 counting this. (Lost to Watford this season).

I understand the point you're making but I really wouldn't count out any of the 3 teams we've played from finishing top 6.

 

EDIT: Miscounted, corrected. 

[Andicis]

1 minute ago, SaintRam said:

Luton lost 2 of their last 19 games after Nathan Jones went back last season - or 3 of their last 22 counting this. (Lost to Watford this season).

I understand the point you're making but I really wouldn't count out any of the 3 teams we've played from finishing top 6.

I was just contextualizing Norwich's start, and why it wasn't as bad as people would like to make out. 

[May Contain Nuts]

Norwich's start wasn't as bad as made out, because they lost against 3 of the teams who finished top six 43 games later.

Derby's end to last season was awful, and pointing out that we played 4 teams who were in the top 6 at the time (3 who finished there) is just making excuses.

Got it. One rule for one...

[Andicis]

1 minute ago, Coconut said:

Norwich's start wasn't as bad as made out, because they lost against 3 of the teams who finished top six.

Derby's end to last season was awful, and pointing out that we played 4 teams who were in the top 6 at the time (3 we finished there) is just making excuses.

Got it. One rule for one...

Let's put some more context on that. Leeds who were already promoted and who's players had been drinking the day before playing Derby, Forest who fell off a cliff, Cardiff who were never up to much (Sheff Utd were autos, Leeds were 3rd but autos level, and WBA were top 4 all season), Brentford and West Brom are fair enough.