Cocu in!

[Tyler Durden]

When the Farke comparisons start being brought out then you can hear the bottom of the barrel being soundly scraped.  

[Andicis]

Just now, Tyler Durden said:

When the Farke comparisons start being brought out then you can hear the bottom of the barrel being soundly scraped.  

They've been happening since December last year. It's consistently a tedious and bad analogy. 

[May Contain Nuts]

27 minutes ago, Andicis said:

Let's put some more context on that. Leeds who were already promoted and who's players had been drinking the day before playing Derby, Forest who fell off a cliff, Cardiff who were never up to much (Sheff Utd were autos, Leeds were 3rd but autos level, and WBA were top 4 all season), Brentford and West Brom are fair enough. 

Fair points, although trying to claim Leeds players were all still pissed up or hungover after a massive bender is pretty disingenuous, it's more like something a Leeds supporter would say as a brag than something Derby fans should accept as absolute truth and use against their own team.

Norwich were also still receiving parachute payments the precious season and able to assemble a squad far better than ours, one ultimately capable of winning the league.

I'm sure there's even more context if we really go looking for it.

[Andicis]

1 minute ago, Coconut said:

Fair points, although trying to claim Leeds players were all still pissed up or hungover after a massive bender is pretty disingenuous, it's more like something a Leeds supporter would say as a brag than something Derby fans should accept as absolute truth and use against their own team.

It's notable just how much you're willing to use context when it suits your argument.

Norwich were also still receiving parachute payments the precious season and able to assemble a squad far better than ours, one ultimately capable of winning the league.

 

There is no way any fan can twist it to say we were playing Leeds best 11 on best form. They played half their subs/reserves and the first team had genuinely been pictured drinking the day before the game in Leeds city centre. 

If you're comparing teams, you should always do so with proper context. Yep, Norwich did have parachute payments. Don't remember them signing many for big money, could be wrong. They let Maddison go in the summer before too. Pukki was a free, Buendia cost around £1.5 million, Max Aarons was an academy player, Jamal Lewis was the same. They just invested wisely and Farke got the best out of what they already had. 

[Rev]

15 minutes ago, Andicis said:

There is no way any fan can twist it to say we were playing Leeds best 11 on best form. They played half their subs/reserves and the first team had genuinely been pictured drinking the day before the game in Leeds city centre. 

If you're comparing teams, you should always do so with proper context. Yep, Norwich did have parachute payments. Don't remember them signing many for big money, could be wrong. They let Maddison go in the summer before too. Pukki was a free, Buendia cost around £1.5 million, Max Aarons was an academy player, Jamal Lewis was the same. They just invested wisely and Farke got the best out of what they already had. 

I'd like to see those pictures.

I don't think an uber manager like Bielsa would stand for it.

[Andicis]

2 minutes ago, reverendo de duivel said:

I'd like to see those pictures.

I don't think an uber manager like Bielsa would stand for it.

 

[May Contain Nuts]

I'll twist it, just for arguments sake! Although I don't really mean this seriously.

Leeds, a club on a massive high following promotion, put out a team consisting of various younger players and 'squad players', who had had all featured (but hadn't been tasked with carrying the team) at various points in the season.

Leaving out all the massive drunkards enabled their fresh faced, energetic team to beat an out of sorts, aging, knackered and demoralised Derby side, suffering from the gruelling fixture schedule

[May Contain Nuts]

50 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

When the Farke comparisons start being brought out then you can hear the bottom of the barrel being soundly scraped.  

It's not as bad as

"When Brian Clough was in charge...' though

[Tyler Durden]

11 minutes ago, Coconut said:

It's not as bad as

"When Brian Clough was in charge...' though

Have been keeping my eyes peeled for that one ?

[Alph]

2 hours ago, Curtains said:

Yes and one Cup game the ref gave a Penalty to win the opposition the game even though the ball hit Buchanan on the head 

The ref gave a penalty wrongly but he didn't win them the game. That was one moment.

[May Contain Nuts]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

The ref gave a penalty wrongly but he didn't win them the game. That was one moment.

I mean... yeah, I agree, but there are moments, and there are moments in the 93rd minute!

[Ambitious]

If you ever wanted an indication where Derby are at the moment: our under 23 team beat Leeds 7-1. When they swapped out half their first team for half their reserve team due to promotion and half our under 23s were promoted to our first team due to being crap, we lost 4-1. 

[NottsRam77]

On 29/09/2020 at 10:07, Ambitious said:

Football is a results business and Cocu is looking down the barrel with one of the hardest months of football we've ever had in this division after the worst start to a season in 28 years. Reading, Luton and Blackburn was a generous start. Now we've got the 3 relegated teams and 2 failed play-off sides in our next six games. 

If he's going to get himself out of this situation then he's going to have to do it the hard way. Another month like we've just had and we could be two months into the season without a win and cut away at the bottom of the league. It would obviously lead to very difficult questions and possibly a sacking. The questions are already being asked. 

Regardless of how the next month transpires, I'm absolutely positive that Cocu will be remembered fondly by the majority of fans, perhaps as the man that put the wheels in motion to a better future. I'm just not sure whether he will be the man that will get to see that through. I truly believe the club is in a healthy position and the players at the club are good enough to mount a promotion challenge, albeit a few injuries and an incredibly sluggish start seems to suggest otherwise. 

Agree 

and more importantly it’s The manner of the defeats 

I mean duck me, we’ve all supported Derby county long enough to see and experience horrible runs of defeats ... but it’s the way in which a team loses that gets my goat up

abject, passive, no tempo , no urgency, lack of organisation, leadership 

unacceptable 

if we make a fight of it and lose so be it but most fans won’t take what appears to be a lack of fight and desire ... I’m looking at u mr Rooney ... his body language last game was simply appalling 

some of the performances this season if you had said it was for a manger that was dead man walking it would have been hard to argue against it 

[NottsRam77]

26 minutes ago, Ambitious said:

If you ever wanted an indication where Derby are at the moment: our under 23 team beat Leeds 7-1. When they swapped out half their first team for half their reserve team due to promotion and half our under 23s were promoted to our first team due to being crap, we lost 4-1. 

I was with u with up until the second bit .. does the make us good or crap lol 

[Rampage]

8 minutes ago, NottsRam77 said:

Agree 

and more importantly it’s The manner of the defeats 

I mean duck me, we’ve all supported Derby county long enough to see and experience horrible runs of defeats ... but it’s the way in which a team loses that gets my goat up

abject, passive, no tempo , no urgency, lack of organisation, leadership 

unacceptable 

if we make a fight of it and lose so be it but most fans won’t take what appears to be a lack of fight and desire ... I’m looking at u mr Rooney ... his body language last game was simply appalling 

some of the performances this season if you had said it was for a manger that was dead man walking it would have been hard to argue against it 

Did you crib that manger word from another thread. I have also done the manger thingy.

[Alph]

2 hours ago, Coconut said:

I mean... yeah, I agree, but there are moments, and there are moments in the 93rd minute!

Yeah, he did manage to gift Preston a goal and he did it late enough to not come back. And goals do change how the game plays out. But on our behalf we could have done so much more in the first half. 

I'll agree Cocu has had no luck. 

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

9 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Yeah, he did manage to gift Preston a goal and he did it late enough to not come back. And goals do change how the game plays out. But on our behalf we could have done so much more in the first half. 

I'll agree Cocu has had no luck. 

You make your own luck alpha,you know that!

[NottsRam77]

7 hours ago, Rampage said:

Did you crib that manger word from another thread. I have also done the manger thingy.

? Lol 

[Dimmu]

14 hours ago, Coconut said:

That annoys me too sometimes, I see people say it and my heart sinks because I know it's got a very easy defence & counterpoint. It ends up weakening the argument on behalf of everyone else!

When we had all those players plus Martin we finished 10th, scored in 12 consecutive games and won 5 in a row in the league / won 11 out of 19 total  from Jan-July. We didn't win all of those matches playing terrible football (yes, some we scraped through!), there were some genuinely decent performances.

Obviously minus Martin (& Lowe, Bogle) that would have brought fewer points, and that remains a big worry looking at our squad at the minute. Add Jozwiak & Ibe to that team though, replace Martin (fingers crossed) and there's no reason to think that we can't still improve on last season, is there? It'll be a tough ask given our start, but nothing is insurmountable at this stage.

Although 'talk is cheap' as Dimmu put it, there have been signs this season that we are trying to play at a quicker tempo, be a little more direct and play higher up the pitch but it's been totally undermined by our defending and attitude to closing down, which is another genuine worry.

Where '3 games' or 5 games, or whatever comes into it is that some people aren't allowing any changes we've made since last season to bear fruit, they're writing off the impact of returning players, dismissing new signings before they're even here because they can't shake off a year's worth of cynicism disappointment.

They're worried about giving it time because we've made such a poor start, which is perfectly understandable. I'm worried too, I don't think anybody isn't worried.

Wasn't me! I think it was @ramit? 

I'm very much undecided with Cocu. I'd definitely like to see gentlemans do well in life in general, but I also like if managers are bit stubborn weirdos like B. Clough, Alex Ferguson, HD Flick, Mourinho etc... or in at our level, Neil Warnock. Stubborness  is not enough, neither is weirdness, proper manager has them both.

I hope Cocu does well, but he wouldn't be my choice as a manager. Unfortunately, I'm not black'n white with this, my opinion is firmly on the grey zone.

[RamNut]

Everyone wants the manager to do well.

cocu has the merit of a great playing career, and some previous managerial success. But....it’s a bit strange to target a manager based on reading an article in 442 magazine.

the biggest weakness of cocu for me was that he didn’t bring a scout and seems happy to go along with whatever the club decide to do recruitment-wise. That’s a real weakness. I like managers who demonstrate that they have good player judgement and a hit list of players that they want. I expected a trickle of signings to arrive from Holland based on his knowledge and contacts.  In the event there has only been Te wierik, who we have to hope will improve. Cocu also seems to tinker all the time. A year after his arrival I’m still not sure he knows his best 11 or his preferred formation, or even his best back four. Similarly I don’t think he’ll win much work as a motivational speaker.

managers are like genies. They promise to rub the lamp, and deliver some magic that will make all of our dreams come true. Once we no longer believe that they possess that magic, then they are on borrowed time.  we know that he has had some rubbish to contend with, and that he has been dignified throughout. But from afar it doesn’t look like he has much bond with the players.  I can’t imagine any Leeds-away dressing room scenes with him bouncing about. 

I still want him to succeed. But he needs to turn things around quickly. Bizarrely I think we will fluke a few points and stagger on, but long term, I just can’t see it working.