Cocu in!

[Marriot Ram99]

5 minutes ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

Our attacking play is relying on too many kids who are CURRENTLY probably just about good enough for this division/league 1. Not blaming them and hopefully they will improve but if you think about it we have Buchannan, Knight, Sibley, Bird, Whittaker JHI in and around the team. Putting it bluntly they are not going to drive us forward. Only one or two of the lads should be in the squad but currently due the the financial realities and the current injuries/fitness issues the club has to operate with what we have.

In my opinion the manager is trying his best to make a silk purse out of a sows ear. Please give him a break!

Bear in mind we have Shinnie and Forsyth who can be called upon as well who are championship standard players even though I don't rate Forsyth, its not like Buchanan and Bird have to play. Jozefoon has been discarded  when if we are in  that dire need of players he could be utilised a bit as he is hardly going to do worse, he's just been poorly utilised by both Lampard and Cocu imo as he was great at Brentford but lost his confidence here. 

[Tyler Durden]

There's a definite schism between those who think that Cocu should be getting more out of the players at his disposal and those who say we should wait until injured players are match fit and the new signings bed in.

I haven't seen any coherent arguments or evidence that things will be remarkably different when this alignment of planetary constellations does come about whenever that may be but I do know that the protagonists are very entrenched at the moment. I was never comfortable with a let's wait and hope attitude as that's what it basically is at the moment. 

[ThePrisoner]

The Cocu In thread has morphed into the Cocu Out thread! 

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

10 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

There's a definite schism between those who think that Cocu should be getting more out of the players at his disposal and those who say we should wait until injured players are match fit and the new signings bed in.

I haven't seen any coherent arguments or evidence that things will be remarkably different when this alignment of planetary constellations does come about whenever that may be but I do know that the protagonists are very entrenched at the moment. I was never comfortable with a let's wait and hope attitude as that's what it basically is at the moment. 

I think the argument is that better players make a better team. We have better players either injured or unfit than quite a few currently getting a game or a place on the bench.

[Tyler Durden]

Just now, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

I think the argument is that better players make a better team. We have better players than quite a few currently getting a game or a place on the bench.

It's not a tangible argument though as it's not possible to demonstrate so again is talking about ifs and buts. Then it will be another game changer and so on and so on.

You can't keep shifting the rules when something else happens ad infinitum we live in a fluid environment or more importantly Cocu does and he has to deal with those challenges just like every other manager. Am just waiting what the next allegedly mitigating factor is and so on. 

It's like playing chess by post, crawling towards an inevitable stalement where the defined end of the game keeps being arbitrarily pushed back by one party.  

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

1 minute ago, Tyler Durden said:

It's not a tangible argument though as it's not possible to demonstrate so again is talking about ifs and buts. Then it will be another game changer and so on and so on.

You can't keep shifting the rules when something else happens ad infinitum we live in a fluid environment or more importantly Cocu does and he has to deal with those challenges just like every other manager. Am just waiting what the next allegedly mitigating factor is and so on. 

It's like playing chess by post, crawling towards an inevitable stalement where the defined end of the game keeps being arbitrarily pushed back by one party.  

You have just described life. Its not shifting the rules, its dealing with random acts that affect the current hand you are dealt. Based upon those factors you may have a good chance of making a fist of something or not. If the variables you have cause you to struggle to be effective/successful then I think its fair to say that with better "variables" someone may judge that you have capacity to do better.

[Tyler Durden]

15 minutes ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

You have just described life. Its not shifting the rules, its dealing with random acts that affect the current hand you are dealt. Based upon those factors you may have a good chance of making a fist of something or not. If the variables you have cause you to struggle to be effective/successful then I think its fair to say that with better "variables" someone may judge that you have capacity to do better.

It's impossible to pin anyone down on here making the whole point of posting an opinion utterly redundant and futile.

Let's wait until Cocu gets all the injured players back then inevitably another will get injured as thats what happens in life as you quite correctly state which then moves the review period further down the road then something else happens and so on.

At what point do you sit down and say no I have more than enough data to make a balanced coherent judgment on someone. A years worth of data capture is more than enough to analyse and form judgements on but some posters are intent to persistently delay their judgement until a totally improbable set of occurrences manifest themselves which again as you quite rightly state are totally against a real life scenario. 

 

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

7 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

It's impossible to pin anyone down on here making the whole point of posting an opinion utterly redundant and futile.

Let's wait until Cocu gets all the injured players back then inevitably another will get injured as thats what happens in life as you quite correctly state which then moves the review period further down the road then something else happens and so on.

At what point do you sit down and say no I have more than enough data to make a balanced coherent judgment on someone. A years worth of data capture is more than enough to analyse and form judgements on but some posters are intent to persistently delay their judgement until a totally improbable set of occurrences manifest themselves which again as you quite rightly state are totally against a real life scenario. 

 

I think the answer to that is when you feel you have enough information to make a fair assessment. People differ, that is the beauty of debate. I may look at various factors when assessing the DCFC managers success and come to a certain conclusion you may look at factors and come to a different conclusion. We then discuss the various differences to see if our original perspective was correct. If we are persuaded by new information we may change our stance.  If we are not persuaded we wont. It doesn't mean I am right and you are wrong just that we have reached different conclusions. It was ever thus!

[Tyler Durden]

2 minutes ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

I think the answer to that is when you feel you have enough information to make a fair assessment. People differ, that is the beauty of debate. I may look at various factors when assessing the DCFC managers success and come to a certain conclusion you may look at factors and come to a different conclusion. We then discuss the various differences to see if our original perspective was correct. If we are persuaded by new information we may change our stance.  If we are not persuaded we wont. It doesn't mean I am right and you are wrong just that we have reached different conclusions. It was ever thus!

Every manager at every club can turn round and say judge me when I have all of my players fit and available again. But the likelihood of that happening is slim to none knowing that players get injured as part and parcel of football. 

But decisions aren't delayed until some mythical scenario, judgements are formed and opinions made on what is being played out rather than on what could have been. That's the only way one CAN make an informed judgement on what they see in front of them, supporters and more importantly owners alike. 

We live in a real world not a theoretical one, you can't turn round and say well if he did have so and so available then we would have x more points, it's a redundant argument which more importantly is impossible to prove. 

[LittleEatonRam]

I've heard plenty of fans saying that Cocu should be doing much better with the players at his disposal but when you look at the line up from Saturday who is at his disposal?

Two players brand new to English football, a 35 year old who is well past it, a centre forward (the only one barely fit) who is bang out of form and a handful of teenagers who have probably played fewer than 40 games in the Championship between them yet are still expected to play like seasoned professionals. 

The only ones who are steadily reliable at this level at the moment are Marshall and Byrne. And the bench isn't much better.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

1 minute ago, Tyler Durden said:

Every manager at every club can turn round and say judge me when I have all of my players fit and available again. But the likelihood of that happening is slim to none knowing that players get injured as part and parcel of football. 

But decisions aren't delayed until some mythical scenario, judgements are formed and opinions made on what is being played out rather than on what could have been. That's the only way one CAN make an informed judgement on what they see in front of them, supporters and more importantly owners alike. 

We live in a real world not a theoretical one, you can't turn round and say well if he did have so and so available then we would have x more points, it's a redundant argument which more importantly is impossible to prove. 

I think we have a misunderstanding. What I see now on the pitch is not good enough and if we carry on we will be relegated. I can see however, from my perspective, that we have a clutch of much better players who will be available quite soon and will make a considerable difference. As such I don't blame the current manager for what is happening now because I don't think he can do much more than he is with what he has available. In my opinion he needs to replace five more outfield  players with those who are currently unfit. That is 50% of the outfield players. You are correct in that we cant equate extra points with better players but you can equate better players with better performances and better performances usually lead to better results. 

Lets say you and I play a 5-a-side game. I have all the best players available and you have the rubbish. We beat you 10-0. Is it your fault you got beat 10-0 or is it the circumstances you had to deal with?

 

[Tyler Durden]

2 minutes ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

I think we have a misunderstanding. What I see now on the pitch is not good enough and if we carry on we will be relegated. I can see however, from my perspective, that we have a clutch of much better players who will be available quite soon and will make a considerable difference. As such I don't blame the current manager for what is happening now because I don't think he can do much more than he is with what he has available. In my opinion he needs to replace five more outfield  players with those who are currently unfit. That is 50% of the outfield players. You are correct in that we cant equate extra points with better players but you can equate better players with better performances and better performances usually lead to better results. 

Lets say you and I play a 5-a-side game. I have all the best players available and you have the rubbish. We beat you 10-0. Is it your fault you got beat 10-0 or is it the circumstances you had to deal with?

 

I think there is a casual link between having better players available and performances yes but it's not a truism by any stretch of the imagination neither is it a caste iron rule of law. 

The example I would use would be yours of the 5 a side game, football isn't just about having the best players available it's about how you organise, coach and drill the players you do have at your disposal.

Or every manager could turn round after a defeat and say the other team had better players than us so that's why we lost. It just simply wouldn't wash and quite rightly too. 

[Jourdan]

2 minutes ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

Let’s say you and I play a 5-a-side game. I have all the best players available and you have the rubbish. We beat you 10-0. Is it your fault you got beat 10-0 or is it the circumstances you had to deal with?

 

This would be a fair point if we were playing in the Premier League.

But the resources Cocu has for a club at Championship level are plentiful.

There is an argument that better players make a better team, but an equally valid argument is that a good manager can also make a team better.

Look at the opposition we have faced in recent weeks.

How many Luton players would you have? How many Preston players would you have?  How many Blackburn or Reading players would you have? How many Barrow players would you have?

From one to eleven, the opposition haven’t been superior. But how the manager has set them up to play and get the better of us certainly has.

[Patrick Rams]

4 hours ago, IslandExile said:

Do you remember the transfer embargo?

It took longer than we'd hope to bring in the new players. Now, we're trying to get them fit. Similarly, we're still trying to get the attacking players fit.

Do you not make allowances for any of that?

Yes, the performances have been poor. But there are reasons. It's not just black and white (see what I did there?).

Err no... what did you do there?

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

11 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

This would be a fair point if we were playing in the Premier League.

But the resources Cocu has for a club at Championship level are plentiful.

There is an argument that better players make a better team, but an equally valid argument is that a good manager can also make a team better.

Look at the opposition we have faced in recent weeks.

How many Luton players would you have? How many Preston players would you have?  How many Blackburn or Reading players would you have? How many Barrow players would you have?

From one to eleven, the opposition haven’t been superior. But how the manager has set them up to play and get the better of us certainly has.

Jourdan, of course a good manager can make a team better, no argument. What I would argue however is that there is a point where good managers cannot overcome the difference in the disparity. In the example you use and flipping it the other way I would not expect any of our youngsters to get a game for Preston, Blackburn or Reading. They would or should be in the Barrow team though I would say. 

It seems we wont come to an agreement on this so maybe we just respect each others view and maybe we will agree on something else.

[BOB BIGGS]

I realise that there’s a major split between the “Ins” and the “Outs” but I look at the squad available for the 3 league games and wonder what it is that the “Outers” think Cocu should have done to get the best out of the players. 

It’s true that some managers can get results against expectations, perhaps short term but it does happen. My problem at present is that I don’t see what he’s supposed to do to transform the available players into winners.

4 or 5 Academy players, most of whom are struggling, Marriott out of form and on the edge of injury, Rooney struggling to make an impact, Wisdom still recovering from the knife attack...etc. With the players he has had available, what is seen as the biggest mistake? I read several comments about the way he sets the team up, boring possession backwards passing, not enough fight and so on. If all of that is true, and it’s the reason for the present poor performances, who should be playing a different game to the one they have played so far?

I think we lack pace and strength in the spine of the team. I think it’s killing us. I don’t see how a change of tactics within existing personnel does much to change that. New or returning players would.

I’d be interested to hear other views.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

26 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

I think there is a casual link between having better players available and performances yes but it's not a truism by any stretch of the imagination neither is it a caste iron rule of law. 

The example I would use would be yours of the 5 a side game, football isn't just about having the best players available it's about how you organise, coach and drill the players you do have at your disposal.

Or every manager could turn round after a defeat and say the other team had better players than us so that's why we lost. It just simply wouldn't wash and quite rightly too. 

But for the first three games the opposition have had markedly better players, in my opinion of course. Generally in the championship teams are reasonably evenly matched but at the moment we are struggling to field a competitive side. I'm not saying our youngsters are no good, far from it, I am saying physically & mentally they are not yet championship players and as there are quite a few in the squad the manager has a very difficult job on his hands to get his team to produce winning performances.

[Alty_Ram]

1 hour ago, Tyler Durden said:

There's a definite schism between those who think that Cocu should be getting more out of the players at his disposal and those who say we should wait until injured players are match fit and the new signings bed in.

I haven't seen any coherent arguments or evidence that things will be remarkably different when this alignment of planetary constellations does come about whenever that may be but I do know that the protagonists are very entrenched at the moment. I was never comfortable with a let's wait and hope attitude as that's what it basically is at the moment. 

I guess that I'm somewhere in the middle (or agree with both ?). We are clearly a long way short of having our best side available but equally we should not be getting battered 4-0 at home by anyone in this league - that was getting embarrassing. We now have a far tougher run of games so I don't expect a massive upturn in fortunes but I want to see us better organised and I want to see a response from the team and the manager. We are very patched up at the moment so I don't mind so much that we will encounter some teams that are just better than us at the moment but I still expect us to be competitive even if ultimately it may not be enough in any particular game.

Personally I think we have little choice but to show some patience and hope get some players back and the odd new player in but the fact remains that Cocu simply must do better with what he has available. 4-0 on your own patch is a mauling by any reckoning. We are understrength but we didn't suddenly become a Non-League side.

[Tyler Durden]

10 minutes ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

But for the first three games the opposition have had markedly better players, in my opinion of course. Generally in the championship teams are reasonably evenly matched but at the moment we are struggling to field a competitive side. I'm not saying our youngsters are no good, far from it, I am saying physically & mentally they are not yet championship players and as there are quite a few in the squad the manager has a very difficult job on his hands to get his team to produce winning performances.

Am not trying to be argumentative and this is going slightly off topic but if we compare our spend on players over the last couple of seasons to Luton or Blackburn then in the next breath I'm being told that they have better players than us. If that's true then it's an absolute disgrace. 

[RoyMac5]

17 minutes ago, BOB BIGGS said:

I don’t see how a change of tactics within existing personnel does much to change that. New or returning players would.

I’d be interested to hear other views.

Well I wouldn't play Marriott the way Cocu plays him, but he's not going to change his tactics up front it seems, only at the back.