ibe to start sat?

[Tyler Durden]

6 minutes ago, James Pond said:

With a previous poster mentioning his past misdemeanors I doubt that there'll be many takers, And agree with your post at the top concerning a disciplinary hearing.

Ultimately it's Ibe's prerogative whether he instructs his agent to go and start looking for alternative employment but the clear import from the information we have is that his days are numbered at the club whichever scenario you choose out of the two. 

[cheron85]

11 hours ago, plymouthram said:

There is definately something dodgy about this man. It will be a shame, to have all that football talent and be a liability in his private life. If he can't sort his life out and is falling back into old stupid habits, he will have to go.

This isn't useful

Most footballers - especially ones shipped around the country on loan at a young age - may not have the support network or help to deal with things like fame, fortune and scrutiny - Add on top of that mental health issues (which many footballers have) and a culture in the sport (even more so than anywhere else) of not talking about it or dealing with it can lead to reckless behaviour 

This is obviously a lad who needs help not judgement

10 hours ago, Millenniumram said:

An internal disciplinary investigation sounds a lot worse than just turning up late to training once.

Depends (see below)

2 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

In "normal" employment law it would be grotesque and utterly disproportionate to convene a disciplinary hearing into someone who has turned up late once for work.

Think it dependa on the scenario

Seems to me it's likely he turned up late for the training session which was immediately after Rooney's first loss - If they made that session a compulsory attendece and made it clear to everyone that was the case then it could be a disciplinary just for being late - team meetings like that would be an exceptional circumstance rather than just not showing up

Equally, disciplinary actions can be brought with the view to helping someone - being late for a key meeting can necessitate a disciplinary but the outcome could be more help for I've to help him manage his mental health better 

[RamNut]

I would prefer the club deals with these issues in private.

Its happened before. Bobby Davison once overslept and missed the coach going to a first team game! 
we didn’t burn him.
did we really think that breaking in Jordan Ibe was going to be a simple matter of shifting some excess timber.

compared to drink driving and injuring people it’s not a big deal really.

 

[Reggie Greenwood]

4 minutes ago, RamNut said:

I would prefer the club deals with these issues in private.

Its happened before. Bobby Davison once overslept and missed the coach going to a first team game! 
we didn’t burn him.
did we really think that breaking in Jordan Ibe was going to be a simple matter of shifting some excess timber.

compared to drink driving and injuring people it’s not a big deal really.

 

Blackburn away , I went . 5-0 defeat as i recall and a bag full of goals for Simon Garner. Saw Bobby in a car making his own way there but still didn’t play. 

[Tyler Durden]

28 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

Seems to me it's likely he turned up late for the training session which was immediately after Rooney's first loss - If they made that session a compulsory attendece and made it clear to everyone that was the case then it could be a disciplinary just for being late - team meetings like that would be an exceptional circumstance rather than just not showing up

Equally, disciplinary actions can be brought with the view to helping someone - being late for a key meeting can necessitate a disciplinary but the outcome could be more help for I've to help him manage his mental health better 

Punctuality normally falls under the employers rules on absence management, assuming Derby has any.

Again "normal" protocol within these rules would be a 3 strike scenario then as you quite rightly said the individual would be invited in for a meeting to discuss and explore options on how the business could assist them to improve their punctuality, agree timelines for improvement and spell out potential consequences if an improvement isn't seen within these timescales. 

If as you also said that extreme importance on attending a certain meeting or function is communicated PRIOR to this event and the individual then fails to attend or is late then exceptional circumstances could be applied however it would have to be proved to be an exceptional event and not just a normal scheduled reoccurring meeting for special sanctions to apply.

[nottingram]

It may even be as simple as Rooney using the wrong phrase, making it seem like a bigger deal than it is.

I think we can take it quite reliably that Ibe was late to training. That is clearly something that won’t be tolerated so he was taken out of the match day squad, but given it was a match day Rooney probably didn’t have time to ascertain the reasons for it. Hence there may be an ‘internal investigation’ which could be as simple as the coaching staff sitting down with Ibe to understand why he was late. Not stating this as fact but just a possible example of a misunderstanding.

The aspersions being cast upon a young man who has suffered from well documented mental health problems also doesn’t sit quite right, personally. If it does prove to be something more serious, I hope the club will work through them with him rather than casting him aside. 

[ziggyram59]

I would just terminate his contact not been right since the first interview. Yes I know he might have mental health issues but there is no room in football for sentiment. 

[Tyler Durden]

Just now, ziggyram59 said:

I would just terminate his contact not been right since the first interview. Yes I know he might have mental health issues but there is no room in football for sentiment. 

You can't just terminate anyones contract without prejudice, even in the real world you would have to give the person's contractual notice period if they weren't found guilty of gross misconduct.

In the footballing world players have far more rights than that so unless you can prove a breach of contract you would have to then pay the persons contract off in full to then release them from it. 

And the last part - if a person was found to have been discriminated against a protected characteristic then this would fall under unfair dismissal if the person then left their job regardless of length of service. 

[SSD]

He could have turned up late for training....

A little bit of an overreaction.

[ziggyram59]

1 minute ago, Tyler Durden said:

You can't just terminate anyones contract without prejudice, even in the real world you would have to give the person's contractual notice period if they weren't found guilty of gross misconduct.

In the footballing world players have far more rights than that so unless you can prove a breach of contract you would have to then pay the persons contract off in full to then release them from it. 

And the last part - if a person was found to have been discriminated against a protected characteristic then this would fall under unfair dismissal if the person then left their job regardless of length of service. 

Plenty of footballer's have had there contracts terminated/sacked. Yes I know they have there right's etc, but let's face it Ibe as been a lousy signing. 

[Tyler Durden]

1 minute ago, ziggyram59 said:

Plenty of footballer's have had there contracts terminated/sacked. Yes I know they have there right's etc, but let's face it Ibe as been a lousy signing. 

Agreed but let's look at them - Adrian Mutu at Chelsea sacked for cocaine use for example and made to pay his contract back to the club, lost his appeal. Not nearly the same ballpark as Ibe.

Other footballers sacked for being sent to jail, which in employment law could be quite justifiable as is termed frustration of contract - how could anyone incarcerated then fulfill their employment contract with the club. 

Derby were well aware of Ibe's situation before thay signed him if they had any due diligence which I believe they did so they knew that taking him on would be a gamble.

At the moment it's looking like the gamble isn't paying off which does happen by definition of the word. 

[Tamworthram]

11 minutes ago, ziggyram59 said:

I would just terminate his contact not been right since the first interview. Yes I know he might have mental health issues but there is no room in football for sentiment. 

What? Why isn't there room in football for sentiment?

When he was given a contract the club must have known about the demons he is battling with but thought they could help him through it and benefit from his talent. 

There obviously might come a time when everyone accepts that it's just not working out but the tone of your post is a little more harsh than that. 

 

[RamNut]

If he is suffering from anxiety he might be unable to sleep.

He might be worrying about getting picked to play first team football on sky tv.

I’ve had it where you can’t get to sleep, then eventually nod off around 5 or 6 am so that you’re then asleep when you should be getting up.

no big deal.
if we Win 4-0 everytime, he can do it again. 

 

 

[Srg]

Some people must have some inside knowledge of his contract here. Who knows what we are paying him? Could be pay as you play for all we know... maybe a bonus for X number of appearances... you would have to assume it’s structured in such a way that we aren’t throwing money at nothing. 

Secondly, please just wait until we actually know something before citing mental health, citing anything about the man... we just don’t know yet. Could be any number of legitimate reasons for whatever has happened, and there could be equally any number of bad reasons for whatever has happened. Just wait. 

[Comrade 86]

27 minutes ago, ziggyram59 said:

I would just terminate his contact not been right since the first interview. Yes I know he might have mental health issues but there is no room in football for sentiment. 

 

16 minutes ago, ziggyram59 said:

Plenty of footballer's have had there contracts terminated/sacked. Yes I know they have there right's etc, but let's face it Ibe as been a lousy signing. 

As @Tyler Durden has pointed out, he would need to be 'managed' out of the business within the constraints of his contract and standard employment law. Employers can't simply go around terminating contracts willy-nilly. There have to be legal grounds for doing so. This might be a single act of gross misconduct, or a series of lesser breaches of his terms of contract.

In any case, it might more appropriate to wait and see what it is he has done and whether this investigation is simply a shot across the bows or indeed, a pre-empt to any such action, before we pre-emptively hang, draw and quarter the lad!

[rammieib]

16 minutes ago, RamNut said:

If he is suffering from anxiety he might be unable to sleep.

He might be worrying about getting picked to play first team football on sky tv.

I’ve had it where you can’t get to sleep, then eventually nod off around 5 or 6 am so that you’re then asleep when you should be getting up.

no big deal.
if we Win 4-0 everytime, he can do it again. 

 

 

Comes a point though when very soon this is one very big waste of money. We’re haemorrhaging money on him. Not just his basic weekly salary (guessing 10-20k a week) but NI payments and so on.

In this Covid era the club cannot afford to keep doing this.

Of course we don’t really know what’s happening but he got as far as starting under 23’s and making a first team appearance. Something has now happened either a minor or serious indiscretion. If the player cannot establish an infrastructure around him to keep him healthy and available then we cannot keep paying him out of the goodness of our heart.

Caveat is that we must follow employment law.

[G-Ram]

He needs to sort himself out pretty soon.

Obviously we dont know the details & he's had issues with mental health which i know aren't easy to get over /recover from. Im not wanting to not be sympathetic to his situation or dismiss mental health issues 

I just feel he needs to get himself sorted & playing soon or he'll lose his football career.

He's obviously got the talent, he's had some off the field issues with the coffee shop incident at Bournemouth. I just feel like Derby is his last chance.

Get in the side, start playing well & resurrect your career. Could either get a big move or promoted with us in the next couple of years.

On the flip side if he doesn't sort himself he'll make a hand full of sub apps over the next two years of his contract, move down the divisions & drop out of football. 

I know it might not be easy for him & im sure everyone wants him to be a success because we all know there is a very good player in there. 

[GboroRam]

52 minutes ago, rammieib said:

Comes a point though when very soon this is one very big waste of money. We’re haemorrhaging money on him. Not just his basic weekly salary (guessing 10-20k a week) but NI payments and so on.

In this Covid era the club cannot afford to keep doing this.

Of course we don’t really know what’s happening but he got as far as starting under 23’s and making a first team appearance. Something has now happened either a minor or serious indiscretion. If the player cannot establish an infrastructure around him to keep him healthy and available then we cannot keep paying him out of the goodness of our heart.

Caveat is that we must follow employment law.

I suspect he's on a significantly lower amount than that. At the time we signed him, his options were low. 

We will have to wait and see what's the situation (if we ever find out at all) but an internal disciplinary sounds heavy handed for being late. It feels like there's more to this story than just that.

[Bubbles]

1 hour ago, rammieib said:

Not just his basic weekly salary (guessing 10-20k a week)

He’s on no way near 10k per week. Half it, and then half it again.

[Ram-Alf]

2 minutes ago, Bubbles said:

He’s on no way near 10k per week. Half it, and then half it again.

£2.5k a week could/would be a starting point, With increments as games played, Jorden Ibe wasn't on many Managers wanted list, Cocu took a gamble, There's talent there for sure, Guessing what's the problem isn't a good cure...time will tell if it's a storm in a Teacup or a straw that broke the camels back?‍♀️