The future is bright

[Gone]

1 hour ago, Rampage said:

Without signing three or four older players better than our present ones, I cannot see our young players getting us promotion next year.

Does it matter if we don’t? a couple more seasons building a team based on the youngsters. A solid sustainable future is better than the boom and bust approach, maybe. 

[G STAR RAM]

Think we need to be realistic and appreciate that a massive amount of our upturn was down to Rooney, its no coincidence that since he has been out of form we havent fired on all cylinders.

Whilst exciting prospects, with them all in the team next season I think we are somewhere between top 6 and mid table.

[Gone]

4 minutes ago, philmycocu said:

Watch him fly next season, quote this in a year

I hope so 

[RoyMac5]

45 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Think we need to be realistic and appreciate that a massive amount of our upturn was down to Rooney...

...but the recent stuff is down to poor judgement from certain players and better quality opposition.

[RamNut]

On the plus side.....we do have some emerging young players, and we have done ok since Xmas.

on the other hand, prior to knights goal v Brentford we went over 5 hours without scoring from open play.

we have some good components, but it doesn’t yet quite seem to suggest a top 6 place next season.
Too many missing cogs.
 

 

[Leicester Ram]

4 hours ago, Jourdan said:

You can’t put us and promotion in the same conversation.

McClaren’s team - our best in 10 years and a team that took five years under Clough to assemble - ultimately wasn’t good enough. Rowett and Lampard’s teams weren’t good enough.

Play-offs? OK, yes. But promotion? This team still has a long way to go to be good enough.

These young players don’t need to be burdened by the expectation that we’ll be next year’s Leeds or next year’s Brentford. We are miles away.

Much like Hughes and Hendrick before them, Bird and Sibley need time to mature. The same goes for Bogle. It’s one thing showing potential in short bursts, it’s another being depended on week in, week out. We have to consider how these players will handle it.

If we can slowly get the recruitment right and keep those three at the club and the trajectory of their development goes as we expect, 2021-22 or 22-23 could be our year.

I don’t like saying it, because promotion should always be the aim in this league. But I think given the state of play at the club with the finances and the infrastructure, it’s where we are right now.

There are some good foundations with the academy but we need to take the expectation levels down a notch.

I agree with this, a well written post and cool headed reality check.

But, one thing I’ve seen is far worse teams than what we could realistically be next season go up through the playoffs. Just because we’ve had a really unfortunate miss with McClaren and had Wembley be a bridge too far with Lampard doesn’t mean we won’t have a very fair shot at promotion next year.

You don’t have to be better than that McClaren team and Lampard team to go up. Huddersfield weren’t that good, QPR weren’t that good, Hull weren’t that good.

The expectation shouldn’t be top two by any means because that’s not our ceiling and will result in a lot of unfair disappointment. Shouldn’t even be disappointed if we missed out on the playoffs.

Our ceiling next season is promotion via the playoffs though and I don’t think we should talk about that in hushed tones. We’d all be kidding ourselves if we didn’t discuss that possibility, it’s what the team will be aiming for and the coaching staff will be motivating them with.

We’ve been one of the top teams in the league since January and I think we’ll be better next season.

[europia]

2 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Think we need to be realistic and appreciate that a massive amount of our upturn was down to Rooney, its no coincidence that since he has been out of form we havent fired on all cylinders.

Whilst exciting prospects, with them all in the team next season I think we are somewhere between top 6 and mid table.

Yes absolutely. Too reliant on Rooney though. If he's not performing, we look a bit clueless. 

[Alph]

6 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

Isn't that Marriott?

He don't work weekends though 

[BramcoteRam84]

Brentford’s front 3 vs Derby’s front 3/4 today, that’s where game was won and lost. BMW are the best in the league by a country mile, pace skill movement finishing they have everything. A dynamic front 3/4 is what we’re missing. Sort that, I think the rest of the team is good enough (apart from the keeper obviously). We dominate games keep the ball brilliantly, we just need cutting  edge. 
 

I think we should consider 4-3-3 again, a midfield 3 of Bird Knight and Sibley could be really dynamic and skilful, or even Rooney sitting with Bird and Knight put Sibley in front 3, we need a goalkeeper, 1 possibly 2 wingers and a striker (which could be a fully fit Jack Marriott), but think we should bring another option in and move on Chrissy Martin who class as he is and has been, (I genuinely hate saying this) has been one dimensional against the better teams who expose his lack of pace. Be sorry to see him go but if we have serious aspirations to be at the sharp end of this league he can’t be the main man and he needs to play regularly at his stage in his career.
 

BMW have completely changed my view on what we need to be successful, I thought nostalgically we could do it with Chrissy but I don’t think so.

[Van der MoodHoover]

6 hours ago, TexasRam said:

Yes, if he could string his dodgy groin together. 

ftfy?

[rammieib]

7 hours ago, Jram said:

I actually thought bogle defended really well today, Lowe too 

first goal, Lowe covered the run mostly, he was just unlucky it bounced to Watkins and the third goal was well defended, they pushed him away from the goal, it was just an unbelievable strike (could Hamer have done better??)

Goal one - Lowe needs to be infront of Watkins instead of day dreaming.

Goal 3 - they pushed to the goal, not away from it!! Brilliant strike yes.

[Jourdan]

2 hours ago, Leicester Ram said:

I agree with this, a well written post and cool headed reality check.

But, one thing I’ve seen is far worse teams than what we could realistically be next season go up through the playoffs. Just because we’ve had a really unfortunate miss with McClaren and had Wembley be a bridge too far with Lampard doesn’t mean we won’t have a very fair shot at promotion next year.

You don’t have to be better than that McClaren team and Lampard team to go up. Huddersfield weren’t that good, QPR weren’t that good, Hull weren’t that good.

The expectation shouldn’t be top two by any means because that’s not our ceiling and will result in a lot of unfair disappointment. Shouldn’t even be disappointed if we missed out on the playoffs.

Our ceiling next season is promotion via the playoffs though and I don’t think we should talk about that in hushed tones. We’d all be kidding ourselves if we didn’t discuss that possibility, it’s what the team will be aiming for and the coaching staff will be motivating them with.

We’ve been one of the top teams in the league since January and I think we’ll be better next season.

I get what you are saying. The division is wonderfully unpredictable and there is no set template for success. The hugely variable quality of promoted teams does tell us that.

Of course we have a shot at promotion this year, next year and the year after that. But I think that comes down to the largely mediocre nature of the division, not because we are progressing as a club particularly well.

Off the field, we are in the headlines for all the wrong reasons. On the field, we are still getting soundly beaten by any side worth their salt.

Our form since January should be no indicator for what’s to come. Once you reset that table, anything goes. It can be a blessing but also a curse where momentum is concerned. Come the autumn, there’ll be 23 other teams convincing themselves this is their year to do better and kick on.

I just think when you weigh things up, we are faced with too many challenges to progress at that kind of pace.

Think about the challenges that come with football in the post-pandemic world. Think about the precarious finances. Think about the uncertainty over the FFP case. Think about the struggle to get investment. Think about the history of poor scouting and recruitment, the opposite of which would probably remedy half of those troubles.

Think about our manager who is still getting to grips with Championship football. Think about the overwhelming inexperience within the squad. Think the dependency on Rooney. Think about the potential need to recruit 5-7 first teamers.

Doesn’t that seem a lot to overcome?

[LincsRam]

9 hours ago, Jram said:

I actually thought bogle defended really well today, Lowe too 

first goal, Lowe covered the run mostly, he was just unlucky it bounced to Watkins and the third goal was well defended, they pushed him away from the goal, it was just an unbelievable strike (could Hamer have done better??)

You are joking right?

1st goal stood off the player, passes into the channel .... shot, post, goal.

2nd goal stood off the player .... shot, fumble, goal

3rd goal stood off the player, goes inside instead of leading him outside ... shot, goal.

Fair enough it wasn't all his fault; Lowe could have reacted for the first goal, Hamer should have saved the 2nd one & the 3rd was a worldy strike but the attackers are getting in the positions because he stands off. I know he is 19 but I don't see that as a valid excuse, it isn't his first game and he stands off all the time, same at WBA, it was nearly identical to today's first goal. He is though an attacking talent and when he isn't being negative looking for that backward pass, he can go past players.

I have had a go at him the last 2-3 games, I just don't see the hype, hopefully he can prove me wrong and become a great player.

[sunnyhill60]

3 hours ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

Brentford’s front 3 vs Derby’s front 3/4 today, that’s where game was won and lost. 

Ha ha ha!

[BramcoteRam84]

6 hours ago, Jourdan said:

I get what you are saying. The division is wonderfully unpredictable and there is no set template for success. The hugely variable quality of promoted teams does tell us that.

Of course we have a shot at promotion this year, next year and the year after that. But I think that comes down to the largely mediocre nature of the division, not because we are progressing as a club particularly well.

Off the field, we are in the headlines for all the wrong reasons. On the field, we are still getting soundly beaten by any side worth their salt.

Our form since January should be no indicator for what’s to come. Once you reset that table, anything goes. It can be a blessing but also a curse where momentum is concerned. Come the autumn, there’ll be 23 other teams convincing themselves this is their year to do better and kick on.

I just think when you weigh things up, we are faced with too many challenges to progress at that kind of pace.

Think about the challenges that come with football in the post-pandemic world. Think about the precarious finances. Think about the uncertainty over the FFP case. Think about the struggle to get investment. Think about the history of poor scouting and recruitment, the opposite of which would probably remedy half of those troubles.

Think about our manager who is still getting to grips with Championship football. Think about the overwhelming inexperience within the squad. Think the dependency on Rooney. Think about the potential need to recruit 5-7 first teamers.

Doesn’t that seem a lot to overcome?

Agree with a lot of this but don’t think we need 5-7, more like 3-4. A goalkeeper and wingers, maybe a striker and another centre half (or Clarke retained). Some cutting edge to help us overcome the better teams is what we need, the rest is there.

As for the inexperience, don’t think we’re woefully inexperienced, Lowe Bogle have a fair few games behind them now, Bird is exceptional and a quick learner, as is Sibley who despite closer attention has still been a threat in games, they will be good championship players next season, as will Knight, the youngsters behind them aren’t ready hence why we need 3-4 additions that will all improve us.

We need to be patient but we’re not far away, I’d argue we’re almost good enough for playoffs now but not to seriously contend the playoffs, we want to be one of the four teams who are seriously challenging.

I think with the right recruitment we can seriously challenge next season and seasons after, whether or not we go up - no one can predict, who would’ve predicted we would spend 12 consecutive seasons in this league - worst run in my lifetime 

[LeedsCityRam]

8 hours ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

Brentford’s front 3 vs Derby’s front 3/4 today, that’s where game was won and lost. BMW are the best in the league by a country mile, pace skill movement finishing they have everything. A dynamic front 3/4 is what we’re missing. Sort that, I think the rest of the team is good enough (apart from the keeper obviously). We dominate games keep the ball brilliantly, we just need cutting  edge. 
 

I think we should consider 4-3-3 again, a midfield 3 of Bird Knight and Sibley could be really dynamic and skilful, or even Rooney sitting with Bird and Knight put Sibley in front 3, we need a goalkeeper, 1 possibly 2 wingers and a striker (which could be a fully fit Jack Marriott), but think we should bring another option in and move on Chrissy Martin who class as he is and has been, (I genuinely hate saying this) has been one dimensional against the better teams who expose his lack of pace. Be sorry to see him go but if we have serious aspirations to be at the sharp end of this league he can’t be the main man and he needs to play regularly at his stage in his career.
 

BMW have completely changed my view on what we need to be successful, I thought nostalgically we could do it with Chrissy but I don’t think so.

I came to a different conclusion watching Martin yesterday. Thought he meshed very well with the pace & dynamism around him, able to hold the ball up & make his intelligent layoffs. Particularly against better teams, that enables us to get a platform in games.

That said, a replacement with some pace in that position would stretch games (as defenders couldn't press as high) and would free up space for us to play. Wouldn't even be that bothered by their strike rate so long as they worked hard & had many of the traits Martin has i.e. able to contribute to build up play & hold the ball up to release pressure. I would also definitely try to keep Martin at the club as cover.

Agree with your later post that we're only 3/4 starters away from top 6. Much of the building blocks are now in place in terms of starters and evolution of play. A top class RW alongside Lawrence & Sibley could make our attacking unit very tough to handle. Id also stick with 4-2-3-1 as we are controlling games at present, reverting to 4-3-3 removes some of the support to the front man, reduces attacking threat & also makes Sibley's inclusion harder. I believe he is good enough to have the formation kept to include his number 10 role.

[BramcoteRam84]

1 minute ago, LeedsCityRam said:

I came to a different conclusion watching Martin yesterday. Thought he meshed very well with the pace & dynamism around him, able to hold the ball up & make his intelligent layoffs. Particularly against better teams, that enables us to get a platform in games.

That said, a replacement with some pace in that position would stretch games (as defenders couldn't press as high) and would free up space for us to play. Wouldn't even be that bothered by their strike rate so long as they worked hard & had many of the traits Martin has i.e. able to contribute to build up play & hold the ball up to release pressure. I would also definitely try to keep Martin at the club as cover.

Agree with your later post that we're only 3/4 starters away from top 6. Much of the building blocks are now in place in terms of starters and evolution of play. A top class RW alongside Lawrence & Sibley could make our attacking unit very tough to handle. Id also stick with 4-2-3-1 as we are controlling games at present, reverting to 4-3-3 removes some of the support to the front man, reduces attacking threat & also makes Sibley's inclusion harder. I believe he is good enough to have the formation kept to include his number 10 role.

It is a difficult one with Chrissy and I find myself slightly changing my opinion game to game recently. Is it he’s not good enough the way the game is played now and he’s past his best, or is it we have the wrong team around him and a few of the right signings will transform him to the player of 5-6 years ago? It’s probably a bit of both, but then is the latter thinking because driven by bias as he’s one of my favourite Derby players of the last 20 years? I think he would be a good option for the squad on the right terms but, sometimes tough calls need to be made and good players let go because they are no longer the right fit. (Asanovic is probably the best example of this)

[LeedsCityRam]

Just now, BramcoteRam84 said:

It is a difficult one with Chrissy and I find myself slightly changing my opinion game to game recently. Is it he’s not good enough the way the game is played now and he’s past his best, or is it we have the wrong team around him and a few of the right signings will transform him to the player of 5-6 years ago? It’s probably a bit of both, but then is the latter thinking because driven by bias as he’s one of my favourite Derby players of the last 20 years? I think he would be a good option for the squad on the right terms but, sometimes tough calls need to be made and good players let go because they are no longer the right fit. (Asanovic is probably the best example of this)

Not sure he's necessarily past his best as the main age related deterioration would be pace & mobility, neither of which he had in the first place! My thinking is his strengths are integral to giving a platform to our strong & improving midfield options. Therefore in answer to your question, believe its the blend of players behind him that arent quite right currently...RW especially & Sibley still learning his trade at this level.

There's also a lack of intelligent forward players out there so replacing him could be difficult. Lots of forwards at our level who are either great in the air, strong or thrive on being 'right place right time' but wont contribute to build up play & suit our style like Martin does. As we've seen with Marriott, flashes of individual brilliance dont always translate to overall team success.

[RamNut]

He played quite well v Brentford. 
the lack of mobility is an issue for reasons that have been identified.
but we haven’t currently agreed a deal with him beyond this season, so any debate about his strengths and weaknesses may soon be academic.

[angieram]

10 hours ago, europia said:

Yes absolutely. Too reliant on Rooney though. If he's not performing, we look a bit clueless. 

Yes, we were rubbish against Blackburn.