GB SPORTS Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 15 hours ago, Millenniumram said: To be fair I agree, the future is bright. It’s not even the distant future. I hear Ben Hamer goes back to Huddersfield in three weeks. Does he need a lift? i'm free in a couple of hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellafella Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 11 hours ago, RamNut said: On the plus side.....we do have some emerging young players, and we have done ok since Xmas. on the other hand, prior to knights goal v Brentford we went over 5 hours without scoring from open play. we have some good components, but it doesn’t yet quite seem to suggest a top 6 place next season. Too many missing cogs. Is it so much about players? Or is it about style of play? Compare our home performance against Blackburn with our performance against Forest. Why did we play at a fast tempo against one then at a plod against the other? Why the difference? When the opposition play tactics like Florist, why do we persist with a style that is obviously being countered and contained? All of these questions are valid and should be addressed. It’s not about “let’s go out and buy x,y and z” although an addition may help. There are many factors and variables. I wonder if our coaching/management team fully understand all of the nuances yet of English Championship football, because we have been brushed aside tactically on more than one occasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BondJovi Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 7 minutes ago, Ellafella said: Is it so much about players? Or is it about style of play? Compare our home performance against Blackburn with our performance against Forest. Why did we play at a fast tempo against one then at a plod against the other? Why the difference? When the opposition play tactics like Florist, why do we persist with a style that is obviously being countered and contained? All of these questions are valid and should be addressed. It’s not about “let’s go out and buy x,y and z” although an addition may help. There are many factors and variables. I wonder if our coaching/management team fully understand all of the nuances yet of English Championship football, because we have been brushed aside tactically on more than one occasion. You say that... but we have been done over by that tactic since NC. Against Brentford we showed more variation in about 20 mins than we did in the whole of the Forest game. Poor performances happen. Against West Brom only 1 player played who started the play off final. That is a huge turnover in players and that answers most questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamNut Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 19 minutes ago, Ellafella said: Is it so much about players? Or is it about style of play? A bit of both. we seem committed to the rowett inspired 4231 formation with two holding players even when the opponent sits deep. The formation can lead to us over passing in the first third. Compared to 433 and it’s variants 451, 4141, we have lost one attacking player and reduced our attacking prowess. the other factor is that we lack natural wide players. Holmes, knight, and Sibley are all better in the centre. Lawrence is either an inside forward or a no10. We could really do with a wide player (or two) who can go past people and deliver a killer cross. Norwich, Leeds, Brentford have all shown the value of that type of player. It would take the load off the full backs, and give us an outlet. Win win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellafella Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 12 minutes ago, BondJovi said: You say that... but we have been done over by that tactic since NC. Against Brentford we showed more variation in about 20 mins than we did in the whole of the Forest game. Poor performances happen. Against West Brom only 1 player played who started the play off final. That is a huge turnover in players and that answers most questions. I think you need to expand a little as I don’t think you’ve really made a case here. Tell me what Brentford did yesterday? Did they move the ball sideways a lot at a slow pace? Did they move it quickly? Did players move off the ball at pace? Did they pass it quickly at times? Did they pass it forwards? Did they run quickly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 1 hour ago, angieram said: Yes, we were rubbish against Blackburn. That's the annoying thing, we have shown we are not reliant on Rooney but when he is in the team other players are just too keen to get the ball to him instead of taking a bit of responsibility themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady1993 Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 43 minutes ago, Ellafella said: Is it so much about players? Or is it about style of play? Compare our home performance against Blackburn with our performance against Forest. Why did we play at a fast tempo against one then at a plod against the other? Why the difference? When the opposition play tactics like Florist, why do we persist with a style that is obviously being countered and contained? All of these questions are valid and should be addressed. It’s not about “let’s go out and buy x,y and z” although an addition may help. There are many factors and variables. I wonder if our coaching/management team fully understand all of the nuances yet of English Championship football, because we have been brushed aside tactically on more than one occasion. There was little difference in terms of tactical set up between the Blackburn game and the Forest. The major differences were execution, personal and the opposition. In the Forest game to be honest there wasn't a great deal that could be done to really shift us tactically and give us a new line of attack except for potentially bringing Waghorn early and maybe shifting to 2 upfront. We had really limited options in that game. Also often your best plan with sides like Forest is to be patient and essentially wear them down as you will get openings to exploit if your patient for them. But again the team was underperforming and we didn't have enough indvidual attacking talent out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamNut Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 I was interested in the role of dasilva for Brentford. He kept breaking forward from one of the two holding positions and was causing problems when he became the extra man. See the first goal. He supports benrahma and then plays the killer pass. I’d like to see Bird break forward like that. In the future, Bird or knight could do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady1993 Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 25 minutes ago, RamNut said: A bit of both. we seem committed to the rowett inspired 4231 formation with two holding players even when the opponent sits deep.The formation can lead to us over passing in the first third. Compared to 433 and it’s variants 451, 4141, we have lost one attacking player and reduced our attacking prowess. the other factor is that we lack natural wide players. Holmes, knight, and Sibley are all better in the centre. Lawrence is either an inside forward or a no10. We could really do with a wide player (or two) who can go past people and deliver a killer cross. Norwich, Leeds, Brentford have all shown the value of that type of player. It would take the load off the full backs, and give us an outlet. Win win. This isn't entirely true. In a 433 the two more forward midfielders don't have nearly as much freedom as the #10 in a 4231, it also tends to reduce defensive responsibility of the wider players. It is possible we should shift to a 433 in some games and I do think we will eventually see a shift to it for a couple reasons; namely Cocu has a stated preference for it and the triangle of Bird, Sibley and Knight seems tailor made for it. But a 433 does likely mean no Rooney in midfield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellafella Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 22 minutes ago, brady1993 said: There was little difference in terms of tactical set up between the Blackburn game and the Forest. The major differences were execution, personal and the opposition. In the Forest game to be honest there wasn't a great deal that could be done to really shift us tactically and give us a new line of attack except for potentially bringing Waghorn early and maybe shifting to 2 upfront. We had really limited options in that game. Also often your best plan with sides like Forest is to be patient and essentially wear them down as you will get openings to exploit if your patient for them. But again the team was underperforming and we didn't have enough indvidual attacking talent out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 58 minutes ago, brady1993 said: This isn't entirely true. In a 433 the two more forward midfielders don't have nearly as much freedom as the #10 in a 4231, it also tends to reduce defensive responsibility of the wider players. It is possible we should shift to a 433 in some games and I do think we will eventually see a shift to it for a couple reasons; namely Cocu has a stated preference for it and the triangle of Bird, Sibley and Knight seems tailor made for it. But a 433 does likely mean no Rooney in midfield. We need to be planning for life after Rooney in any case. Although fit, hes probably looking for this to be his last playing contract before moving properly into coaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted July 12, 2020 Author Share Posted July 12, 2020 2 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said: We need to be planning for life after Rooney Back to 4-3-3, Bird sitting, Knight and Sibley in a midfield 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 Just now, David said: Back to 4-3-3, Bird sitting, Knight and Sibley in a midfield 2 That trio did for Blackburn didn't they? Maybe give them a couple more run outs before end of the season? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady1993 Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 5 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said: We need to be planning for life after Rooney in any case. Although fit, hes probably looking for this to be his last playing contract before moving properly into coaching. Oh sure and that's part of why I think we will transition to 433 eventually. That combined with the trio of young midfielders maturing and being at a place where the defence needs less assistance in building out from the back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady1993 Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 3 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said: That trio did for Blackburn didn't they? Maybe give them a couple more run outs before end of the season? Didn't Knight start on the right in that game with a two man midfield of Shinnie and Bird behind Sibley ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angieram Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 22 minutes ago, David said: Back to 4-3-3, Bird sitting, Knight and Sibley in a midfield 2 Ooh, good - that would suit Martin perfectly! ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted July 12, 2020 Author Share Posted July 12, 2020 1 minute ago, angieram said: Ooh, good - that would suit Martin perfectly! ? It really would if he’s still here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCFC_Sloth Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 30 minutes ago, David said: Back to 4-3-3, Bird sitting, Knight and Sibley in a midfield 2 I’m not sure Knight, Bird, and Sibley can play together in a 3. Knight is probably a box to box player and would likely excel in a three, more than he is doing out wide right now. He’s not really a wide man but does a decent job there. Sibley definitely isn’t a centre mid for me, he needs to be further forward as a ‘number 10’ or second striker. If he was deeper in in the midfield I think his impact on games would be hugely diminished. A question of discipline also hangs over Sibley, I feel he would pick up too many bookings in that position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yani P Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 Unlikely to happen but just imagine.. Leeds lose today then we beat them.. Brentford take auto with WBA leaving a shell-shocked Leeds in 3rd..we ridiculously pinch 6th on the last day... Groundhog Day.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
48 hours Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 Looking at all the team formations proposed, think we need to look at other options. The most successful Derby team in recent times arguably was under Jim Smith when he played 3 at the back. Think of a back 3 of Wisdom TeWierik Clark (as an example). You could then play Lowe and Bogle as wingbacks, which I think they both would be more comfortable at (?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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