Day Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 8 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said: Twice then? Four! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sage Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 1 minute ago, David said: Four! Two !! Turning them inside out doesn't count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomAccessMemory Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 13 minutes ago, CornwallRam said: The loan guarantees are not all secured against assets of one company. Several companies featuring Mel Morris as director appear in the charge document. One is Stadia DCFC Ltd. Is it possible that is the company that owns the stadium? If so, Mel has put the ground up as security. Pretty sure Gellaw Newco 202 is the one that owns the ground. There are 8 Chargors listed in the document and the 'Registration of Charge' pdf is available on them all. Club DCFC Limited https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10196214/filing-history The Derby County FC Academy Limited https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10196336/filing-history The Derby County Football Club Limited https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00049139/filing-history Gellaw Newco 202 Limited https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/11422836/filing-history Gellaw Newco 203 Limited https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/11420393/filing-history Gellaw Newco 204 Limited https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/11420460/filing-history Sevco 5112 Limited https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/09740438/filing-history Stadia DCFC Limited https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10196152/filing-history I think Gellaw Newco 202 and Gellaw Newco 204 are separate from the club and the only reason they are linked is because Mel also owns them, and we lease the stadium. Gellaw Newco 203 is the ultimate parent of the Club (and Club DCFC, Academy and Stadia DCFC), Sevco 5112 is the immediate parent of the Club (and Club DCFC, Academy and Stadia DCFC). Something that has been nagging me, ramblur who used to post a lot about the accounts, said on the thread about the 2016/17 ones (and in a follow up post in another thread, if I've read it correctly) that they thought the Club was consolidating the related companies (Club DCFC, Academy and Stadia DCFC). I've not seen anything questioning that so I don't know if anyone is in a position to confirm it at all? If I had any idea how to figure it out I'd check myself, but I'm no accountant! ? If that is the case would that mean we are overestimating the FFP/P&S losses for 2016/17 and 2017/18 as the Academy costs (at least) are exempt? It may dramatically change the position if c.£12m in Academy running costs (approximately £6m for each of the 2 years I think is the situation for Cat 1) is being included in calculations when it need not be. The Club hasn't announced a separate FFP/P&S result since 2015/16, only the financial result. https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/28716-the-accounts-1617/?do=findComment&comment=1433495 https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/28716-the-accounts-1617/?do=findComment&comment=1433800 https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/28734-sam-rush/?do=findComment&comment=1435936 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, RandomAccessMemory said: Pretty sure Gellaw Newco 202 is the one that owns the ground. There are 8 Chargors listed in the document and the 'Registration of Charge' pdf is available on them all. Club DCFC Limited https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10196214/filing-history The Derby County FC Academy Limited https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10196336/filing-history The Derby County Football Club Limited https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00049139/filing-history Gellaw Newco 202 Limited https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/11422836/filing-history Gellaw Newco 203 Limited https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/11420393/filing-history Gellaw Newco 204 Limited https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/11420460/filing-history Sevco 5112 Limited https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/09740438/filing-history Stadia DCFC Limited https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10196152/filing-history I think Gellaw Newco 202 and Gellaw Newco 204 are separate from the club and the only reason they are linked is because Mel also owns them, and we lease the stadium. Gellaw Newco 203 is the ultimate parent of the Club (and Club DCFC, Academy and Stadia DCFC), Sevco 5112 is the immediate parent of the Club (and Club DCFC, Academy and Stadia DCFC). Something that has been nagging me, ramblur who used to post a lot about the accounts, said on the thread about the 2016/17 ones (and in a follow up post in another thread, if I've read it correctly) that they thought the Club was consolidating the related companies (Club DCFC, Academy and Stadia DCFC). I've not seen anything questioning that so I don't know if anyone is in a position to confirm it at all? If I had any idea how to figure it out I'd check myself, but I'm no accountant! ? If that is the case would that mean we are overestimating the FFP/P&S losses for 2016/17 and 2017/18 as the Academy costs (at least) are exempt? It may dramatically change the position if c.£12m in Academy running costs (approximately £6m for each of the 2 years I think is the situation for Cat 1) is being included in calculations when it need not be. The Club hasn't announced a separate FFP/P&S result since 2015/16, only the financial result. https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/28716-the-accounts-1617/?do=findComment&comment=1433495 https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/28716-the-accounts-1617/?do=findComment&comment=1433800 https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/28734-sam-rush/?do=findComment&comment=1435936 The club's immediate parent is now NewCo 203 (skipping out Sevco 5112), which has been the case for over a year now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomAccessMemory Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 4 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said: The club's immediate parent is now NewCo 203 (skipping out Sevco 5112), which has been the case for over a year now. Is that what the 'person of significant control' changes are about on Companies House? I was going by the last accounts, which are obviously before that date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBRammette Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 16 minutes ago, RandomAccessMemory said: Pretty sure Gellaw Newco 202 is the one that owns the ground. There are 8 Chargors listed in the document and the 'Registration of Charge' pdf is available on them all. Club DCFC Limited https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10196214/filing-history The Derby County FC Academy Limited https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10196336/filing-history The Derby County Football Club Limited https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00049139/filing-history Gellaw Newco 202 Limited https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/11422836/filing-history Gellaw Newco 203 Limited https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/11420393/filing-history Gellaw Newco 204 Limited https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/11420460/filing-history Sevco 5112 Limited https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/09740438/filing-history Stadia DCFC Limited https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10196152/filing-history I think Gellaw Newco 202 and Gellaw Newco 204 are separate from the club and the only reason they are linked is because Mel also owns them, and we lease the stadium. Gellaw Newco 203 is the ultimate parent of the Club (and Club DCFC, Academy and Stadia DCFC), Sevco 5112 is the immediate parent of the Club (and Club DCFC, Academy and Stadia DCFC). Something that has been nagging me, ramblur who used to post a lot about the accounts, said on the thread about the 2016/17 ones (and in a follow up post in another thread, if I've read it correctly) that they thought the Club was consolidating the related companies (Club DCFC, Academy and Stadia DCFC). I've not seen anything questioning that so I don't know if anyone is in a position to confirm it at all? If I had any idea how to figure it out I'd check myself, but I'm no accountant! ? If that is the case would that mean we are overestimating the FFP/P&S losses for 2016/17 and 2017/18 as the Academy costs (at least) are exempt? It may dramatically change the position if c.£12m in Academy running costs (approximately £6m for each of the 2 years I think is the situation for Cat 1) is being included in calculations when it need not be. The Club hasn't announced a separate FFP/P&S result since 2015/16, only the financial result. https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/28716-the-accounts-1617/?do=findComment&comment=1433495 https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/28716-the-accounts-1617/?do=findComment&comment=1433800 https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/28734-sam-rush/?do=findComment&comment=1435936 Generally over-complications with numerous companies that appear to have no function is a bad sign. Why so complicated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JABBA Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 1 hour ago, SchtivePesley said: Trying to get my head around this. So Mel sold himself the freehold on the ground (the price of which is the subject of the EFL charge) And now Mel leases it back to the club to use as their stadium This £30m is secured against the club's lease? How does that work then, if the club defaults on the loan then MSD owns the lease Have they got a football team? Not the team no, we default on the loan and they have bought a stadium for £30m!! ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomAccessMemory Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 8 minutes ago, CBRammette said: Generally over-complications with numerous companies that appear to have no function is a bad sign. Why so complicated? Club DCFC is (or at least was, I don't know it's current status) a joint enterprise between the Club and Delaware North, so that might explain that one. I'm assuming that as the Academy is exempt from FFP/P&S, it might be easier to keep it separate? I don't know about the others, but I think a lot of Football Clubs have multiple parent companies, so I don't think it's particularly concerning. I think it is still a joint enterprise as the current 'Officers' does include Delaware North related people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePrisoner Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 6 minutes ago, RandomAccessMemory said: Club DCFC is (or at least was, I don't know it's current status) a joint enterprise between the Club and Delaware North, so that might explain that one. I'm assuming that as the Academy is exempt from FFP/P&S, it might be easier to keep it separate? I don't know about the others, but I think a lot of Football Clubs have multiple parent companies, so I don't think it's particularly concerning. I think it is still a joint enterprise as the current 'Officers' does include Delaware North related people. I work for a big global company and we're structured the same way. There's our local office registered as its own company belonging to a another company above us who are owned by another parent and so forth. We're all still ultimately owned by the same entity, it's just the structure. Majority of us are football fans, not financial experts despite what most on here would like to think! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 7 minutes ago, ThePrisoner said: Majority of us are football fans, not financial experts despite what most on here would like to think! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerbyPride Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 33 minutes ago, JABBA said: Not the team no, we default on the loan and they have bought a stadium for £30m!! ? Probably market value according to the EFL... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaspode Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 Mods - any chance we can keep all of the finance/loan comments in one thread? Seems there are two parallel streams both saying pretty much the same thing at the moment.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boycie Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 2 hours ago, Gaspode said: Mods - any chance we can keep all of the finance/loan comments in one thread? Seems there are two parallel streams both saying pretty much the same thing at the moment.... Do some work? We do enough as it is mate, the users have to do there bit too. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamNut Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 3 hours ago, RandomAccessMemory said: ramblur who used to post a lot about the accounts, said..... said.....we would have no problem with ffp. I posted that the huge wage bill and the massive losses seemed to suggest possible problems and he went mad. The next set of accounts did indeed reveal the predictable loss and the sale of the stadium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 15 minutes ago, RamNut said: said.....we would have no problem with ffp. I posted that the huge wage bill and the massive losses seemed to suggest possible problems and he went mad. The next set of accounts did indeed reveal the predictable loss and the sale of the stadium. No. That's not what happened. On 12/06/2018 at 23:38, ramblur said: Well done, but I don't mind. For the sake of a few days I might even take a certain person off my massive ignored list. Bankruptcy is a legal term, and nothing to do with accounting nurds. If you asked 1000 Joe Soaps in the street what they understood by it, I'm sure most would have an idea that it was an inability to meet creditors in a timely manner. Mind you, if you asked 1000 RamNuts, you'd obviously get a different answer. As far as I'm aware, we don't appear to have had this problem for over a decade - maybe he's getting confused with the gumps. I've been saying for ages, and over more posts than I care to remember, that wages are too high, and need to come down significantly, long before Ramnut poked his snout in. He seems to think he's some kind of pioneer in this respect. One day, it might just click that it's his ridiculous use of the consolidated accounts, and all the paper transactions that might entail, that I objected to, along with this absurd crusade over Mel's loan to his own investment company. It's a great pity that the article @David linked didn't give individual club debts. It still hasn't clicked then. On 29/03/2018 at 12:52, ramblur said: With all the profits on sale (bar Christie) having gone into the 16/17 accounts, I do worry about this year, not anything to do with falling foul of FFP, as we've built up a good bit of leeway in 15/16 and 16/17. However, I wouldn't want us to breach £13m by a lot this year, as it would have implications for future cycles. The one ending 18/19 mightn't be too bad, because you've a 16/17 hefty undershoot to add to a possible 17/18 overshoot, but it's the following cycle that would worry me more :- Possible 17/18 overshoot + 18/19 that might be close to £13m , mightn't leave a lot for 19/20.............enter the U23s? Not sure how that equates to Ramblur saying "we would have no problem with ffp" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomAccessMemory Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 28 minutes ago, RamNut said: said.....we would have no problem with ffp. I posted that the huge wage bill and the massive losses seemed to suggest possible problems and he went mad. The next set of accounts did indeed reveal the predictable loss and the sale of the stadium. @Ghost of Clough has made a very good post on that, and I've got absolutely no intention of being drawn into it. I asked a very specific question and wondered if anyone who understands accounting could answer it as depending on that answer I think it could potentially make a big difference to how much the EFL are accusing us of exceeding the losses limit by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 5 hours ago, Gaspode said: Mods - any chance we can keep all of the finance/loan comments in one thread? Seems there are two parallel streams both saying pretty much the same thing at the moment.... Agreed. I don't like to moan about the moderators on this fine forum, but they are a bit useless at times. I'm here now though so don't panic, any loan talk I will swoop in and move like the hero that I am. Use the report button to alert me as well incase I'm having a nap. I'll sort this place out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnero Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 Now nobody is posting in either thread ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, Carnero said: Now nobody is posting in either thread ? Any thread for that matter, I can't remember last time it was so quite on here. I've resorted to talking to the wife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaltRam Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 Maybe the announcement will be 7pm today? Or tomorrow? Or not. Is there anyone in at the EFL, or have they all succumbed to covid? Has anyone checked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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