v Sheffield Wednesday (A) - Matchday Thread

[Millenniumram]

4 hours ago, Archied said:

Right one final knock to see if anybody is in 

I pulled you on your negative comment regards cocu being negative and its part of a myth being propagated the he is a negative manager,

WHY?

i think ( opinion) the sub was the right move at the time ,

WHY

with the best will in the world it’s very hard for players to not slip into a mindset that the game is won after that first half and half time score line,not on purpose but it can creep in,

they came out with a far more aggressive mindset than us and we could have very easily let it slip ,cocu saw this and put fresh legs and minds out there with the instruction to get out there ,battle and make sure we see this win through ,yep could have gone wrong but just as easily could have gone wrong not making the changes but each sub had something to live up to if are hungry enough to be fighting for starting places.

if Mac 1 had another string to his bow and been able to close out some games with ugly grit and determination when needed he would have got us up ,it’s a quality is needed in teams at the right time and place

Wow you actually tried to justify your opinion this time, rather than just telling me I’m wrong because I’m not Cocu so my view isn’t valid. Unbelievable what happens when you try and use a forum in the way it’s meant to be used, isn’t it?

I still disagree with you though. For me it’s not so simple as we’re under the cosh so let’s stick a defender on and that’ll sort it. Sometimes that’s the best idea obviously, but not always. Imo the problem we had at the start of the second half was we weren’t retaining possesion well enough when we won it, because we’d naturally dropped deeper since Wednesday came out more aggressive. The way to sort that isn’t through a personnel switch for me, it’s through a tactical switch - instructing the midfield to press a bit higher up the pitch. Putting Davies on just seemed to make the situation worse from what I saw, we ended up even deeper to cover for his lack of pace, which is why we ended up conceding and made the end of the game a little more nervy imo. You leave Wisdom in there, and we’ve got the ability to push further up like first half again. If we were really struggling with an aerial threat then I could understand Davies coming on, and I’ve seen people justify the sub for that reason which is fair enough if they saw the game that way. For me though, I didn’t think we were struggling in the air despite all their crosses at the start of the second half. The main problem I saw was them getting too much space around our 18 yard box, which isn’t a problem Davies is suited to resolving - as good a defender as he is. 

Id also dispute your claim that Cocu being negative is a “myth”. You might not think he is, but there’s enough evidence out there from some of his tactical decisions here - and certainly from fans of his former clubs - to potentially suggest that he’s on the more cautious end of football managers. That isn’t necessarily a bad thing though - Mourinho is on a similar end of that particular spectrum, and he’s one of the most successful managers of all time. I don’t think Cocu has been brought here to play suicidally attacking football, so there’s no problem from me in that respect, so long as he’s not too extremely defensive. In the early season I was critical of him being too defensive, since the new year I think he’s been far braver, probably due to the availability of players like Rooney and Wisdom. So I’ve not generally got a problem, it’s just a couple of subs he makes still seem a little overnegative to me and it’s frustrates me sometimes. If it was 85 mins and we’re bringing on an extra centre half then that’s ok, I’m just not a fan of doing it at 60 mins without it truly being necessary imo.

Also, in terms of the MAC 1 comparison, how many points did we drop from winning positions that season? And how many have we dropped from winning positions this season? I haven’t looked the stats up, but I reckon the latter will be a larger number, so is the close it out tactic really always the best move? The players obviously make a big difference too, but I don’t think it’s as clear cut as you make out.

[Archied]

4 hours ago, Millenniumram said:

Wow you actually tried to justify your opinion this time, rather than just telling me I’m wrong because I’m not Cocu so my view isn’t valid. Unbelievable what happens when you try and use a forum in the way it’s meant to be used, isn’t it?

I still disagree with you though. For me it’s not so simple as we’re under the cosh so let’s stick a defender on and that’ll sort it. Sometimes that’s the best idea obviously, but not always. Imo the problem we had at the start of the second half was we weren’t retaining possesion well enough when we won it, because we’d naturally dropped deeper since Wednesday came out more aggressive. The way to sort that isn’t through a personnel switch for me, it’s through a tactical switch - instructing the midfield to press a bit higher up the pitch. Putting Davies on just seemed to make the situation worse from what I saw, we ended up even deeper to cover for his lack of pace, which is why we ended up conceding and made the end of the game a little more nervy imo. You leave Wisdom in there, and we’ve got the ability to push further up like first half again. If we were really struggling with an aerial threat then I could understand Davies coming on, and I’ve seen people justify the sub for that reason which is fair enough if they saw the game that way. For me though, I didn’t think we were struggling in the air despite all their crosses at the start of the second half. The main problem I saw was them getting too much space around our 18 yard box, which isn’t a problem Davies is suited to resolving - as good a defender as he is. 

Id also dispute your claim that Cocu being negative is a “myth”. You might not think he is, but there’s enough evidence out there from some of his tactical decisions here - and certainly from fans of his former clubs - to potentially suggest that he’s on the more cautious end of football managers. That isn’t necessarily a bad thing though - Mourinho is on a similar end of that particular spectrum, and he’s one of the most successful managers of all time. I don’t think Cocu has been brought here to play suicidally attacking football, so there’s no problem from me in that respect, so long as he’s not too extremely defensive. In the early season I was critical of him being too defensive, since the new year I think he’s been far braver, probably due to the availability of players like Rooney and Wisdom. So I’ve not generally got a problem, it’s just a couple of subs he makes still seem a little overnegative to me and it’s frustrates me sometimes. If it was 85 mins and we’re bringing on an extra centre half then that’s ok, I’m just not a fan of doing it at 60 mins without it truly being necessary imo.

Also, in terms of the MAC 1 comparison, how many points did we drop from winning positions that season? And how many have we dropped from winning positions this season? I haven’t looked the stats up, but I reckon the latter will be a larger number, so is the close it out tactic really always the best move? The players obviously make a big difference too, but I don’t think it’s as clear cut as you make out.

Yep the lights are on but

if throwing a sub on to bolster the defence when your 3 -0 up away from home with about the worst defensive record in the division is the wrong time to do it I’m not sure when it’s ever the right time to do it 

maybe ask wassell because doing the opposite probably destroyed his chance at the big job in a stroke

[Millenniumram]

27 minutes ago, Archied said:

Yep the lights are on but

if throwing a sub on to bolster the defence when your 3 -0 up away from home with about the worst defensive record in the division is the wrong time to do it I’m not sure when it’s ever the right time to do it 

maybe ask wassell because doing the opposite probably destroyed his chance at the big job in a stroke

But as I say, that seems too simplistic to me. Throwing on a defender doesn’t necessarily improve your defence, it has to be a change to counteract what the opposition are doing. As I said, for me that sort of sub situation around the 80 minute mark is fair cop, but with so much of the game to play, it strikes me as inviting too much unneeded pressure. 

There is an in between what Cocu did and what Wassall Did though. Don’t think anyone’s suggested he should have took Clarke off and lobbed Marriott on at half time to go for the jugular. There’s a balance where you just stick with what’s working, but play to control the game and not take unnecessary risks. Imo that has to be the strategy when you’re leading with over half an hour of the game to play.

[DRBee]

7 hours ago, Archied said:

Yep the lights are on but

if throwing a sub on to bolster the defence when your 3 -0 up away from home with about the worst defensive record in the division is the wrong time to do it I’m not sure when it’s ever the right time to do it 

maybe ask wassell because doing the opposite probably destroyed his chance at the big job in a stroke

But you could argue that being too negative in the 1st leg playoff is actually what cost Wassall , but don't let the need to justify yourself get in the way of the facts.

[RadioactiveWaste]

42 minutes ago, DRBee said:

But you could argue that being too negative in the 1st leg playoff is actually what cost Wassall , but don't let the need to justify yourself get in the way of the facts.

I always blamed Harry for insisting DazWaz (and dazwaz for listening) play a clearly not for Bradley Johnson (who contributed to two hull goals....

Anyway, Cocu can be maddening with his subs, but we got our away win and it was always going to be the case that Wednesday tried harder second half.

[Bubbles]

8 hours ago, Millenniumram said:

But as I say, that seems too simplistic to me. Throwing on a defender doesn’t necessarily improve your defence, it has to be a change to counteract what the opposition are doing. As I said, for me that sort of sub situation around the 80 minute mark is fair cop, but with so much of the game to play, it strikes me as inviting too much unneeded pressure. 

There is an in between what Cocu did and what Wassall Did though. Don’t think anyone’s suggested he should have took Clarke off and lobbed Marriott on at half time to go for the jugular. There’s a balance where you just stick with what’s working, but play to control the game and not take unnecessary risks. Imo that has to be the strategy when you’re leading with over half an hour of the game to play.

I understand and respect your opinion however I do slightly disagree, I see you "stick with what's working" the thing is, we was being dominated second half (maybe a bit of an exaggeration) but Weds came out completely different... I think the whole concept behind the sub was to control the game, ensure stability at the back to deal with fresh legs etc....

But at the end of the day everyone sees it differently, you see it the way you do, I see it the way I do, Barry 42 from Alvaston sees it the way he does...

Good thing forums are meant for debate! ?

[Comrade 86]

It's quite sad that after a performance like we put in against the Wendies, that this thread is now being dominated by questions about the validity of his subs rather than the brilliance of the first 45 minutes during which the game was effectively put to bed. 

Debate is all well and good but folks' frustration is quite understandable when some choose to spend so much time focusing on what they perceive to be errors and so little on the fact that we at least are showing some good form away from home and have secured a well earned 3 points.

The fact is, the Wendies never remotely looked like winning this game and would admit as much themselves.

[Millenniumram]

1 hour ago, Squid said:

I understand and respect your opinion however I do slightly disagree, I see you "stick with what's working" the thing is, we was being dominated second half (maybe a bit of an exaggeration) but Weds came out completely different... I think the whole concept behind the sub was to control the game, ensure stability at the back to deal with fresh legs etc....

But at the end of the day everyone sees it differently, you see it the way you do, I see it the way I do, Barry 42 from Alvaston sees it the way he does...

Good thing forums are meant for debate! ?

Fair enough, as I say I can see what Cocu was trying to do, I just don’t think it was the right move at the time. It didn’t matter regardless on the day anyway, because we tore them apart first half - it’s just a slight concern for future matches, rather than a criticism of what was clearly the best away result we’ve had all season

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

Just now, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

It's quite sad that after a performance like we put in against the Wendies, that this thread is now being dominated by questions about the validity of his subs rather than the brilliance of the first 45 minutes during which the game was effectively put to bed. 

Debate is all well and good but folks' frustration is quite understandable when some choose to spend so much time focusing on what they perceive to be errors and so little on the fact that we at least are showing some good form away from home and have secured a well earned 3 points.

The fact is, the Wendies were never remotely looked like winning this game and would admit as much themselves.

Some seem to be critics rather than supporters. Not denigrating them......Just an observation!

[BondJovi]

13 minutes ago, Millenniumram said:

Fair enough, as I say I can see what Cocu was trying to do, I just don’t think it was the right move at the time. It didn’t matter regardless on the day anyway, because we tore them apart first half - it’s just a slight concern for future matches, rather than a criticism of what was clearly the best away result we’ve had all season

My issue is that Cocu has been criticised for not making subs, or leaving it too late, this time he goes early and same response. In this instance maybe the change was 5-10 mins too early but we had to get more height in there to repel the long ball. Our only option was Davies and Knight the only real choice to be sacrificed. Probably says more about our squad than being negative. You also have to factor in how poor our away form has been. I suspect if results had been better away from home that change may not have happened so soon.

[Millenniumram]

9 minutes ago, BondJovi said:

My issue is that Cocu has been criticised for not making subs, or leaving it too late, this time he goes early and same response. In this instance maybe the change was 5-10 mins too early but we had to get more height in there to repel the long ball. Our only option was Davies and Knight the only real choice to be sacrificed. Probably says more about our squad than being negative. You also have to factor in how poor our away form has been. I suspect if results had been better away from home that change may not have happened so soon.

I know what you mean, and I don’t blame Cocu for being proactive - we were clearly struggling at the start of the second half as Wednesday unsurprisingly weren’t as painfully poo as first half. I just don’t think it was a personnel issue - personally I didn’t think the long ball was causing us too much problems, despite it being Wednesdays primary tactic. I think it was more of a tactical one, where we needed to switch to a more possession based controlling style.

[Archied]

3 hours ago, DRBee said:

But you could argue that being too negative in the 1st leg playoff is actually what cost Wassall , but don't let the need to justify yourself get in the way of the facts.

You could argue that the confidence in wassell was long gone before the play off , unless Harry was just brought in to read the sporting life and pick horses as the confidence in wassell was sky high from fans ,players and mel ?

but hey don’t let the FACTS or FACT that a nanny had been brought in get in the way of negative normaning 

[Archied]

29 minutes ago, Millenniumram said:

I know what you mean, and I don’t blame Cocu for being proactive - we were clearly struggling at the start of the second half as Wednesday unsurprisingly weren’t as painfully poo as first half. I just don’t think it was a personnel issue - personally I didn’t think the long ball was causing us too much problems, despite it being Wednesdays primary tactic. I think it was more of a tactical one, where we needed to switch to a more possession based controlling style.

Jeez ,switch to a more possession based controlling style??? They are 3/0 down , don’t matter if they lose 6/0 ,they are going to risk everything being all over us like a rash and you think we should knock it around and take risks , jeez and jeez again , get an extra defender on , stiffen up midfield and stick Marriott up there with pace ,keep it tight ,fight like your life depends on it and hit them on the break ,

just what cocu set up to do with subs 

apologies to those that like myself just want to enjoy the thread after a fantastic win that’s been comming given performances of late but just for once it’s worth biting back at the constant negative crew who fill posts with hindsight guff when we lose and find the negative when we win ,the threads when we lose are much more posted on than when we win ,except this one where there’s a bit of bite back on the guff.

my last post on this thread ,fantastic win ,I loved every bit of it ,onwards and upwards

ps bet the neg crew will not moan about just receiving a laugh imagi ? any more 

[Srg]

Pretty surprising Martin didn’t make this given the 3 assists. 

[DRBee]

2 hours ago, The Orange Pimpernel said:

Some seem to be critics rather than supporters. Not denigrating them......Just an observation!

Perhaps 'critical supporters' would be more accurate, Whilst I complain about Cocu being over cautious I wouldn't criticise the subs on 

Saturday at all. For some reason we were poor from the start of the second half and the end result justified the substitutions.

 

 

[Ghost of Clough]

40 minutes ago, Srg said:

Pretty surprising Martin didn’t make this given the 3 assists. 

It's partly because they've put Lawrence upfront despite playing on the left wing. Even so, Matt Smith scored 8.3 after only scoring 1 goal for Millwall.

[Srg]

2 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

It's partly because they've put Lawrence upfront despite playing on the left wing. Even so, Matt Smith scored 8.3 after only scoring 1 goal for Millwall.

Bit of a weird classification really when Lawrence is definitely utilised more like those that are included in the midfield here. 

[Ghost of Clough]

4 minutes ago, Srg said:

Bit of a weird classification really when Lawrence is definitely utilised more like those that are included in the midfield here. 

Whoscored have him down as playing AM (and Knight LW) for some reason, but then put him at CF instead of CM for the TOTW

[WystonRam]

I am glad we didn’t lose on Saturday...

[Millenniumram]

2 hours ago, Archied said:

Jeez ,switch to a more possession based controlling style??? They are 3/0 down , don’t matter if they lose 6/0 ,they are going to risk everything being all over us like a rash and you think we should knock it around and take risks , jeez and jeez again , get an extra defender on , stiffen up midfield and stick Marriott up there with pace ,keep it tight ,fight like your life depends on it and hit them on the break ,

just what cocu set up to do with subs 

apologies to those that like myself just want to enjoy the thread after a fantastic win that’s been comming given performances of late but just for once it’s worth biting back at the constant negative crew who fill posts with hindsight guff when we lose and find the negative when we win ,the threads when we lose are much more posted on than when we win ,except this one where there’s a bit of bite back on the guff.

my last post on this thread ,fantastic win ,I loved every bit of it ,onwards and upwards

ps bet the neg crew will not moan about just receiving a laugh imagi ? any more 

Christ almighty I really can’t be bothered anymore.... you quite clearly haven’t read my post, either or you don’t have a tactical grasp on the fact that possession football doesn’t always mean attacking football. There’s literally no point fighting your meaningless rants anymore, I’ll leave it there in the hope of saving mine and others posters brain cells...