Yet another Chris Martin thread.... Yes really

[TuffLuff]

3 minutes ago, rammieib said:

I maybe in the minority here but I think it’s time to move on from Chris Martin now. Our play under Cocu is different to the Mac days when it was using Chris more. Now it’s about passing it around and breaking through channels. We really need a scorer up there and one who can run in behind.

These last two games have been quite painful from an attacking angle and it’s been better when Waghorn has been up front.

Sometimes we need to move on, we’re just about over GT and I do feel it’s time to move on from CM.

 

[Sparkle]

5 minutes ago, rammieib said:

I maybe in the minority here but I think it’s time to move on from Chris Martin now. Our play under Cocu is different to the Mac days when it was using Chris more. Now it’s about passing it around and breaking through channels. We really need a scorer up there and one who can run in behind.

These last two games have been quite painful from an attacking angle and it’s been better when Waghorn has been up front.

Sometimes we need to move on, we’re just about over GT and I do feel it’s time to move on from CM.

 

Good option to have but not anymore always to start 

we need a new Russell out wide 

[BondJovi]

5 minutes ago, rammieib said:

I maybe in the minority here but I think it’s time to move on from Chris Martin now. Our play under Cocu is different to the Mac days when it was using Chris more. Now it’s about passing it around and breaking through channels. We really need a scorer up there and one who can run in behind.

These last two games have been quite painful from an attacking angle and it’s been better when Waghorn has been up front.

Sometimes we need to move on, we’re just about over GT and I do feel it’s time to move on from CM.

 

There have been plenty of games this season where we have seen moments of vintage Martin. I don't believe he has the fitness to play 3 games a week, let alone 2! No one has particularly played well the last 2 games. 

He is still an important part of the squad and will be next season hopefully.

[Rev]

3 minutes ago, rammieib said:

I maybe in the minority here but I think it’s time to move on from Chris Martin now. Our play under Cocu is different to the Mac days when it was using Chris more. Now it’s about passing it around and breaking through channels. We really need a scorer up there and one who can run in behind.

These last two games have been quite painful from an attacking angle and it’s been better when Waghorn has been up front.

Sometimes we need to move on, we’re just about over GT and I do feel it’s time to move on from CM.

 

I painfully agree, man it hurts typing that!

I've thought for a long time there's no problem at Derby County that couldn't be solved by the inclusion of Chris Martin in the starting eleven.

Just get runners beyond him, and let him do his work.

But we've moved on and don't play that way for better or worse, we no longer possess the players that bring out the best in Martin, the inclusion of Rooney sitting leaves one less midfielder to make those runs, Bird holding his hand is two down.

We no longer play our way up the pitch using a fullback, wide midfielder and forward triangle, so we're not using Martin in the way that makes most sense.

I feel we're kind of stuck between how Cocu wants us to play, and the players he has at his disposal to make it happen, and it's not quite how he thinks it should be.

I'd reluctantly let him depart come seasons end, and hope we'd identify a replacement who could fit the style better.

Who that might be god knows ?!

 

[IslandExile]

The problem isn't Martin, the problem is that we don't have any runners going past him to pick up the flicks.

We need to move the ball quicker up to Martin then have runners.

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

1 hour ago, reverendo de duivel said:

I painfully agree, man it hurts typing that!

I've thought for a long time there's no problem at Derby County that couldn't be solved by the inclusion of Chris Martin in the starting eleven.

Just get runners beyond him, and let him do his work.

But we've moved on and don't play that way for better or worse, we no longer possess the players that bring out the best in Martin, the inclusion of Rooney sitting leaves one less midfielder to make those runs, Bird holding his hand is two down.

We no longer play our way up the pitch using a fullback, wide midfielder and forward triangle, so we're not using Martin in the way that makes most sense.

I feel we're kind of stuck between how Cocu wants us to play, and the players he has at his disposal to make it happen, and it's not quite how he thinks it should be.

I'd reluctantly let him depart come seasons end, and hope we'd identify a replacement who could fit the style better.

Who that might be god knows ?!

 

Nah,two games when we are painfully undermanned and provide him with no service doesn't mean he should go....he's still our best striker by far and when we have a functioning team,fits cocus system like a glove...you just have to look at his and our performances in the run up to lockdown to see how the team were gelling around him and Rooney as the playmakers.

Have some faith,we have lost one in game in half a dozen.

[ITSD]

Thought he looked knackered last night- loose passes and gave it away a fair amount- he obviously can't play every game anymore.

That said I still think in terms of intelligence and technical ability he's one of the best strikers in the league. Does anyone else remember that moment against Forest where he controlled it in the air then backheeled it to Sibley- I can't imagine Waghorn even considering doing that, let alone pulling it off.

He clearly isn't the player he was in 2014 but a fantastic option to have- I think his goal & assist ratio from this season demonstrates that.

On a personal level he's my all-time favourite player and I'd love to see him continue to climb the top scorers list.

[rammieib]

15 hours ago, IslandExile said:

The problem isn't Martin, the problem is that we don't have any runners going past him to pick up the flicks.

We need to move the ball quicker up to Martin then have runners.

But thats the point - that is not Cocu's style of play. That was Mac's style of play.

Our style of play is to pass it around and find a channel to break into or find the player in the hole. With this method, you need a striker who will then peel off.

It is frustrating I know but the managers style needs the right players behind it.

[TuffLuff]

3 minutes ago, rammieib said:

But thats the point - that is not Cocu's style of play. That was Mac's style of play.

Our style of play is to pass it around and find a channel to break into or find the player in the hole. With this method, you need a striker who will then peel off.

It is frustrating I know but the managers style needs the right players behind it.

I think it’s more our lack of width and pace. Martin hasn’t had a lot of room in the centre and Bird, Sibley and himself have been pretty easily man marked out of the game. Holmes and Knight don’t really provide that width and don’t really drag players out of position for others to exploit. Really the last two games we’ve relied on Bogle to get wide and deliver a cross but he’s yet to do that with any real quality. 
 

I get your point, we know Martin won’t be week in week out 20 goals a season any more but he does have a role to play within our style. 10 goals and 6 assists prove that alone, he like the rest of the side will improve once we have a settled and more balanced squad.

[nottingram]

I think in our current iteration of 4231, the ‘3’ need as much space as possible in which to play. Having a striker who, for all his undeniable qualities, is as slow as Martin restricts this space hugely because defenders know they can step up. There’s little risk of any offside trap being breached. Then you have the problem of Martin coming deep and operating in the same spaces as Lawrence and Sibley but with very few runners ahead of him. There isn’t a Russell or a Ward making a run in between the centre back and the full back or a Bryson running beyond him anymore

He undoubtedly has his uses and has had a very good season. But I no longer think we can get the best out of him. If he would stay and be a plan B then that would be great, but I’m not sure he will or even should be willing to do that. 

[BondJovi]

9 minutes ago, nottingram said:

I

He undoubtedly has his uses and has had a very good season. But I no longer think we can get the best out of him. If he would stay and be a plan B then that would be great, but I’m not sure he will or even should be willing to do that. 

Problem for Martin is that his fitness issues mean he can't do two games in a week at his best. At this level he would only be a plan B or backup option. You can't justify building the team around him unless you have a younger clone! He is smart enough to know this so I hope he stays.

[RoyMac5]

12 minutes ago, nottingram said:

I think in our current iteration of 4231 ...

So how come his stats show him as the Championship player who contributes the most per minute? How come Waghorn/Marriott when up on their own with no service also look meh? Could it be to down with the '3' in the 4-2-3-1 rather than the 1!

[Sparkle]

The biggest problem with Martin is when we only have Martin ! As an option he is great, when the opponent can set up to nullify him not so great which is why we need a selection of different types of forwards who all score goals and we need 4 of them available all the time so for me it’s Martin, Marriott, probably Waghorn but I prefer him wide right and someone we sign who turns out to be fantastic. They all cost money but we currently have 3 of them 

[cheron85]

4 hours ago, rammieib said:

But thats the point - that is not Cocu's style of play. That was Mac's style of play.

Our style of play is to pass it around and find a channel to break into or find the player in the hole. With this method, you need a striker who will then peel off.

Not being funny but Cocu keeps picking Martin, Cocu wants the owners to offer him a new contract and under Cocu Martin is delivering goals and assists

I reckon let Cocu decide whether a player fits into the way he wants to play

[Day]

2 hours ago, cheron85 said:

Not being funny but Cocu keeps picking Martin, Cocu wants the owners to offer him a new contract and under Cocu Martin is delivering goals and assists

I reckon let Cocu decide whether a player fits into the way he wants to play

Shut the forum down! ?

[Chester40]

Serious question....do the stats show how far Martin ran the last couple of games? (setting you up for the 'he doesn't need to run round like a headless chicken argument). 

I find him is so frustrating in games like these. He cuts a real narky figure, doesn't work the channels, will throw himself down a few times (and not get the free kick) , chew gum, shake his head a bit.. and remain pretty rooted to the spot. 

I have never been his biggest fan but on occasion he can do amazing things and in a team built round him with energetic runners he can be incredibly effective. Currently in a team short on experience, lacking in pace/drive/width and willingness to go beyond and playing lots of games...he is just not giving us the platform or momentum we need.

Definitely wouldn't have him as our number one striker next season. With Marriott seemingly permanently semi-injured and Waghorn so wasteful, it's a position that urgently needs addressing. 

PS apologies I can't be so virulently anti-Chris as some dearly departed members but if it's enough to inspire him to a goal today, I am happy to be subjected to ridicule for the next few weeks. 

[NottsRam77]

On 08/07/2020 at 21:03, reverendo de duivel said:

I painfully agree, man it hurts typing that!

I've thought for a long time there's no problem at Derby County that couldn't be solved by the inclusion of Chris Martin in the starting eleven.

Just get runners beyond him, and let him do his work.

But we've moved on and don't play that way for better or worse, we no longer possess the players that bring out the best in Martin, the inclusion of Rooney sitting leaves one less midfielder to make those runs, Bird holding his hand is two down.

We no longer play our way up the pitch using a fullback, wide midfielder and forward triangle, so we're not using Martin in the way that makes most sense.

I feel we're kind of stuck between how Cocu wants us to play, and the players he has at his disposal to make it happen, and it's not quite how he thinks it should be.

I'd reluctantly let him depart come seasons end, and hope we'd identify a replacement who could fit the style better.

Who that might be god knows ?!

 

Nailed it 

Iv said it on here before but over the last few years there’s been simply nothing Iv enjoyed watching more in the championship than chris Martin on song, he’s a clever, intelligent technician of a centre forward, forget his goals Iv just loved watching him play.

however to get the best out of him involves a pretty finite process and we just don’t seem set to play in that way.

while one would argue it’s a possession based way like macs the difference is under Mac we would spring up the pitch against sides with runners coming in off the wings or past or up close to Martin from central areas as your posts says ... Rooney equals one less runner and bird (due to his role) ditto 

I love Martin and if there’s a way of making it work ... for the better of the team I’d love to see that but sadly I think time might be up 

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

3 hours ago, NottsRam77 said:

Nailed it 

Iv said it on here before but over the last few years there’s been simply nothing Iv enjoyed watching more in the championship than chris Martin on song, he’s a clever, intelligent technician of a centre forward, forget his goals Iv just loved watching him play.

however to get the best out of him involves a pretty finite process and we just don’t seem set to play in that way.

while one would argue it’s a possession based way like macs the difference is under Mac we would spring up the pitch against sides with runners coming in off the wings or past or up close to Martin from central areas as your posts says ... Rooney equals one less runner and bird (due to his role) ditto 

I love Martin and if there’s a way of making it work ... for the better of the team I’d love to see that but sadly I think time might be up 

Best get rid of Rooney too then,because surely he should be winning every game for us,by himself,it's not about the rest of the team being ineffectual at all,it's surely about just one player not being able to win games by themselves.

If you can't see that the problem isn't going to be solved by blaming the most effective striker in the division that I'm pretty dismayed.

[Day]

39 minutes ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

Best get rid of Rooney too then,because surely he should be winning every game for us,by himself,it's not about the rest of the team being ineffectual at all,it's surely about just one player not being able to win games by themselves.

If you can't see that the problem isn't going to be solved by blaming the most effective striker in the division that I'm pretty dismayed.

Sorry Kash but you get a little too defensive over Martin and don't read what people are writing. NottsRam wasn't "blaming" Martin, nor did he say that he should be winning games alone, but simply echoing what Revel said earlier that he doesn't suit Cocu's system that will, so if there was any blame that would be at Cocu's feet.

With Rooney and Bird being Cocu's first choice sitting midfielders we don't have runners like we had in Bryson and Hendrick, again this is Cocu's system. That's how he wants to play.

Now of course Martin can still play in this team and grab goals, but in some games he will be almost a passenger as he doesn't cover ground to come deeper and get involved. I thought this was true for large spells v Forest and West Brom but it's hard to come on and say that without being mobbed by his bodyguards as you get the usual, well he had no service which maybe true but that's when you need to drop deeper and cover ground but he's very much a this is what I do and here I am striker.

Just to reiterate this is not knocking Martin, there are many strikers like that, Berbatov is a classic example and if you can build the team around a striker like that as McClaren did then you will get the most out of them which we did and hold very special memories of that team.

Now I know you would love to see him given a X year deal and build a team around him, but forget what we all may want, I honestly can't see Cocu doing that. 

It's great to have different options though and if Martin will accept a wage of a squad player, great keep him around, but I do think Cocu will be looking for a new first choice striker when the window opens and he may sacrifice Martin to make room on the wage bill for that.

 

[RoyMac5]

2 minutes ago, David said:

Sorry Kash but you get a little too defensive over Martin and don't read what people are writing. NottsRam wasn't "blaming" Martin, nor did he say that he should be winning games alone, but simply echoing what Revel said earlier that he doesn't suit Cocu's system that will, so if there was any blame that would be at Cocu's feet.

In what way doesn't he suit Cocu's style, is this when he plays a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-3-3?