The Politics Thread 2020

[Comrade 86]

2 hours ago, Van Wolfie said:

Not doing what we've done for the last 50 odd years, with the benefit of hindsight, isn't very helpful in the short term, though.

Neither is continuing down the same road and then hand-wringing when the upshot is the same as was before. The definition of madness being...

2 hours ago, Van Wolfie said:

And it hasn't prevented countries not involved in those activities being targeted by terrorists.

True story and how many non-oil producing states attacked by Isis groups have we seen the US and the UK rushing to aid? Also, how many attacks in have been on US / UK interests in said regions or at holiday resorts favoured by Western Europeans. I'd venture that your point strengthens the argument for desisting from certain aspects of our current 'foreign policy' rather than maintaining them.

[Norman]

7 minutes ago, Carl Sagan said:

Glad there's a discussion about prisons on here. As @Normansays it's sadly out of sight, out of mind.

A huge issue is that it's easier to get drugs inside than out and vast numbers of inmates are on spice. And that often puts prisoners into debt, which they can't pay off. Either they're brutally beaten for owing money, or the local islamist faction offers to pay their debt in exchange for signing up to the cause. That's a significant reason for the recruitment of young inmates who on the surface appear unlikely candidates. 

After decades of neglect the task of reforming/improving prisons for the overall good of society is both huge and unpopular. It needs lots of money, a focus on health and education, probably a significant change in sentencing ideas and much better use of technology. Plus we obviously need a complete reappraisal of society's attitude to illegal drugs.

I hope it happens. I don't think it's anyone's priority. If they don't legalize drugs I'd bang Gove up for several years for his coke habit and, by the time he came out he'd have become a crusading figure for change. You need someone high profile and political to make it happen. 

100 percent agree. You have working knowledge of prisons, or are you an ex-con ?? 

[Stive Pesley]

54 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Although I agree with most of what you have said, I'm not sure why any of them things would make a British born person want to go out and kill innocent citizens.

Because they are all tools/events used to indoctrinate and radicalise people to a cause?

Try thinking about what made a British born person go out and kill innocent citizens when that person is Darren Osborne or Thomas Mair

If you take the religion and ethnicity out of the equation then all terrorist murderers are essentially driven by the same things

[Comrade 86]

40 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Although I agree with most of what you have said, I'm not sure why any of them things would make a British born person want to go out and kill innocent citizens.

What is the link?

I can't unequivocally provide reasons obviously, but my guesses would be hopelessness and inadequacy, anger over their life experiences or treatment by others or the state, or combinations thereof.

Those who are generally disaffected and see no future for themselves are far easier to radicalise than those who are integrated and feel part of our society, this much we know. This is why so many are recruited in prison, that and the fact that recruiters have months or even years in which to indoctrinate people who are already more predisposed to their message than is typical.

Lastly, those with no future compounded with poor education can also see the 'lifestyle' as being 'glamorous' when compared to a lifetime of menial work, poor wages and low self-esteem.  I think this is certainly true of Isis bride types who are essentially groomed over time but find the reality somewhat different to the picture that was painted.

 

[G STAR RAM]

19 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Because they are all tools/events used to indoctrinate and radicalise people to a cause?

Try thinking about what made a British born person go out and kill innocent citizens when that person is Darren Osborne or Thomas Mair

If you take the religion and ethnicity out of the equation then all terrorist murderers are essentially driven by the same things

Not sure what the solution is then? 

Not get involved in any events at all in the Middle East?

[G STAR RAM]

11 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

I can't unequivocally provide reasons obviously, but my guesses would be hopelessness and inadequacy, anger over their life experiences or treatment by others or the state, or combinations thereof.

Those who are generally disaffected and see no future for themselves are far easier to radicalise than those who are integrated and feel part of our society, this much we know. This is why so many are recruited in prison, that and the fact that recruiters have months or even years in which to indoctrinate people who are already more predisposed to their message than is typical.

Lastly, those with no future compounded with poor education can also see the 'lifestyle' as being 'glamorous' when compared to a lifetime of menial work, poor wages and low self-esteem.  I think this is certainly true of Isis bride types who are essentially groomed over time but find the reality somewhat different to the picture that was painted.

But pretty much every time we have these terrorist incidents we hear that they are lovely people from normal backgrounds?

Either that narrative is not true, and then you would have to start questioning the people close to them, or there is something else driving them to do what they are doing.

[Spanish]

3 hours ago, Norman said:

Not true. You have to complete sentence plans/targets, Victim Awareness courses, have a clean ***** record, be in meaningful employment or education, have a suitable resettlement plan etc etc. You don't just get released. It actually takes quite the effort and behaviour to get out halfway through your sentence. 

well that wasn't in the context of my reply.  But are you saying the latest terrorist to get released early had met all these standards?  if so it is of no value as he went out to murder people almost as soon as he could

[TramRam]

26 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

I can't unequivocally provide reasons obviously, but my guesses would be hopelessness and inadequacy, anger over their life experiences or treatment by others or the state, or combinations thereof.

 

 

I watched the Film about the Oklahoma City Bombing on Netflix, Bomber being Timothy MCveigh, It doesn't take a great deal to become a mass murderer.

[Comrade 86]

36 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

But pretty much every time we have these terrorist incidents we hear that they are lovely people from normal backgrounds?

Either that narrative is not true, and then you would have to start questioning the people close to them, or there is something else driving them to do what they are doing.

I think that if one is planning a terrorist atrocity, the last thing likely is to start ranting and raving about it down the pub. Quite the opposite, that is if you want to avoid suspicion. It's just speculation of course, but it would seem to make sense that folk who commit such despicable crimes are most often likely to try and hide their intentions to do so.

[Norman]

41 minutes ago, Spanish said:

well that wasn't in the context of my reply.  But are you saying the latest terrorist to get released early had met all these standards?  if so it is of no value as he went out to murder people almost as soon as he could

Yeah, difficult job. Which is my point. 

[Carl Sagan]

1 hour ago, Norman said:

100 percent agree. You have working knowledge of prisons, or are you an ex-con ?? 

Happily not the latter! Sadly I have friends who are current ? I'd always intended to volunteer, running creative writing workshops or giving science talks, and am cross with myself I've not done that. It's been an eye opener going on visits and receiving letters, purely because it's normally out of sight so you don't have to think about it.

[Norman]

I could give precise numbers on all of this, but I'm not allowed to. I could also give precise timings on terror threats due to those on license returning to prison, but I'm not allowed to. 

So frustrating to read some of the stuff posted in here. 

[maxjam]

Sorry to interrupt the discussion but this is genius - I don't know whether to laugh or cry!

 

 

[Ghost of Clough]

5 hours ago, Carl Sagan said:

Happily not the latter! Sadly I have friends who are current ? I'd always intended to volunteer, running creative writing workshops or giving science talks, and am cross with myself I've not done that. It's been an eye opener going on visits and receiving letters, purely because it's normally out of sight so you don't have to think about it.

You’ve now volunteered! Norman will seems to his boss tomorrow and you’ll be able to visit on Monday morning. 

[Highgate]

So Trump is acquitted.  I'm sure that's a surprise to nobody.  Did anyone else think the US Senate disgraced itself by choosing not to hear from witnesses ?

[maxjam]

37 minutes ago, Highgate said:

So Trump is acquitted.  I'm sure that's a surprise to nobody.  Did anyone else think the US Senate disgraced itself by choosing not to hear from witnesses ?

The whole thing was a farce, questions for both sides needed asking but the result was always going to be inevitable.  

Trump derangement syndrome has the Democrats imploding at present, especially after Pelosi's latest stunt.  Average Americans are doing well atm, and the future is bright  They saw that tantrum and other Democrats not standing, applauding for American values and will remember that at the election.

 

 

[maxjam]

?

Some of the tweets below are good as well;

- Didn't she buy ex-council flats and sell them for a huge profit? Correct me if I'm wrong.

- And as yet, has dodged paying tax on the profits

- One rule for the elite, another for the plebs

Dunno if any of thats true not got time to fact check, but if it is...

[Norman]

Wonder why we have a housing crisis? 

[G STAR RAM]

13 minutes ago, maxjam said:

?

Some of the tweets below are good as well;

- Didn't she buy ex-council flats and sell them for a huge profit? Correct me if I'm wrong.

- And as yet, has dodged paying tax on the profits

- One rule for the elite, another for the plebs

Dunno if any of thats true not got time to fact check, but if it is...

This woman is comedy gold, it's about time she was given her own stand up show.

If she is so bothered about homeless people and families living in hotels, why didn't she buy them a house instead of her parents and her brother? I'm assuming they weren't homeless before she bought them a house?

I'd like to check her bank account and any money that she is not using be taken off her, wonder what she thinks to that policy?

[King Kevin]

There's a few issues in the housing market 1 Pensions were taxed by Mr Brown so the public looked to other area's like Buy To Let there is also the issues of inherited properties cascading down.

                                                                      2  Help to buy is in a lot of cases just allowing people to buy properties they wouldn't normally be able to afford further up the housing ladder.

                                                                      3 People from the EU have come over with nothing, worked hard and got on the housing ladder so fair play to them .BUT in a lot of cases the benefits they get are very close to what they earn and in some cases exceed what they earn  which is the economics of the mad house . 

It's a numbers game if you let 200,000 people in every year you get high property prices, homeless people ,the countryside built over etc etc.