Angry Ram Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 7 hours ago, Highgate said: That's a pretty depressing outlook. No doubt money does distort the US's bizarre attempt at democratic elections to a large degree, no doubt about it. Bernie's biggest obstacle in that regard is winning the Democratic nomination, not the presidency itself. As for the Dallas reference, that's what we heard when Obama got elected too?, albeit for different reasons And he came through two terms unscathed. Don’t muck around with the military dollar in the USA.. Political suicide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Ram Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 7 hours ago, 1of4 said: Careful now. I think you've been reading to many of Trump's tweets. Your starting to sound like a radicalized MAGA hat wearer. I am.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 11 hours ago, TramRam said: The Far right is a product of Far left/left wing policies, Left wing policies... Care to elaborate? How? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Ram Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 4 hours ago, Carl Sagan said: America's basically a socially conservative right-of-center country. The incumbent has a lot of advantages which is why a President normally serves two terms. When Trump was winning the GOP nomination it should have made him unelectable. The catch 22 being to be popular enough to win the vote of extremist Republicans should rule you out of being able to win the presidency. But two things were in his favor. One he was a TV megastar so known and loved throughout the country for being business-savvy, into charitable good causes and friends with bucketfulls of celebs (many black and/or LGBT). Which was the real Donald Trump? He'd been a registered Democrat most of his life but stood for the GOP partly so he didn't have to run against his close friend Hilary Clinton. Two, Hilary was a terrible candidate, part of the nepotism culture and with a "do as I say, not as I do" attitude. She couldn't criticize Trump's personal behaviour because she'd defended her husband for far worse and hounded the women who dared accuse him. When Bill became President they were hugely in debt. Miraculously they have since amassed a vast fortune, fed into the Clinton Foundation. As Secretary of State, she required donations to the foundation for favors. "Drain the swamp" was an easy catchphrase. Oh and that wall people ridicule Trump for? Bill Clinton began building it. Bush took up the cause and built thousands of miles of Mexican border wall in a bipartisan program with the support and votes of Senators Hilary Clinton and Barack Obama. That just doesn't fit the media narrative. Now the Democrats have gone extreme and disappeared down their own rabbit hole. Anyone who wins their own nomination will by definition be unelectable. What we don't see over here are the political ads which are a massive part of every campaign. Last time Hilary said she'd "put half of Trump's supporters in a basket of deplorables" basically using the same tactic as remainers accusing the other side of being racist or fascist or whatever. Trump ran her comments over and over in TV ads. Insulting the electorate is never the way to win them over. If Bernie wins the nomination Trump's campaign is a doddle. He just runs interview footage of Sanders praising Castro saying Cuba's a wonderful model, as are the high-taxation European countries and if only America could be like them it might become a half-decent country. Sanders wouldn't have a hope in hell. A record defeat. But up until the last minute twitter would convince the Dems they were in with a chance. Brilliant.. ‘Build the wall’ ‘ Get Brexit done’. Two simple sound bites that resonated both sides of the pond. Add ‘Make America great again’ to the US narrative and Bobs your uncle. Chicken dinners all round. Whats the Dems sound bite? Trumps a liar.. Then they consistently fail to prove anything. The income tax debacle when Rachel Baddow got all excited that her station had a copy of his tax return.. So excited, then they realised there was nothing in it. Self destruct at every opportunity.. I would not be surprised if Trump released that himself.. I wonder what Clinton’s tax returns show? The TV adds would be hilarious, if they were not such a sad indictment of today’s society.. Pathetic really. Trump, as much as people hate him, is too clever for the Dems. He speaks to the electorate direct, an electorate that in the main is hugely patriotic and they lap it up. The Dems in essence are not socialists but left leaning liberals and as in the UK Joe average in Moose Butt Alabama, ain’t ready for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TramRam Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 28 minutes ago, GboroRam said: Care to elaborate? How? In Germany Merkel chose to let in over 1.2 million refugees/immigrants, A decision she now regrets losing seats to the AfD, If she hadn't had done this then there would not have been a far right party, Similar to the rise in the 30s against the Jewish population. The National Front and in particular the EDL(not a party more of a protest organisation)and Britain first, Saw things in the UK that Governments in their minds were working more for foreigners than the British born, The British voter in the main imo do not take to a far right ideology, The NF took some council seats around the UK some years ago but soon lost them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted February 8, 2020 Author Share Posted February 8, 2020 12 hours ago, 1of4 said: You could well be assuming wrongly. Worryingly he could win the 2020 election. This doesn't mean that he's going a good job. More like the people of America don't want to vote for his rival. Tell an American that someone's political views are even a smidgen left of centre and they'll be calling them commies. Me , if I was a US citizen I'd definitely be supporting Bernie Sanders. We could actually be making progress here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyinLiverpool Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 50 minutes ago, TramRam said: In Germany Merkel chose to let in over 1.2 million refugees/immigrants, A decision she now regrets losing seats to the AfD, If she hadn't had done this then there would not have been a far right party, Similar to the rise in the 30s against the Jewish population. The National Front and in particular the EDL(not a party more of a protest organisation)and Britain first, Saw things in the UK that Governments in their minds were working more for foreigners than the British born, The British voter in the main imo do not take to a far right ideology, The NF took some council seats around the UK some years ago but soon lost them. You surely can’t be suggesting Merkel is left wing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TramRam Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 24 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said: You surely can’t be suggesting Merkel is left wing. No, She's Centrist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 55 minutes ago, TramRam said: No, She's Centrist. So contrary to what you said, the centrists caused the rise of fascism? Do you have any evidence other than polemic to back up your words, or is it just gut feel stuff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteHorseRam Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 18 hours ago, BriggRam said: I wonder what this poohouse is doing this afternoon https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51298096 He's carrying on! Only Wednesdays when PMQs is on though mind. Whatever you think of his politics you have to admire his stamina. Should get a knighthood - plenty of others have who have shouted ******* from the sidelines randomly for years and years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Sagan Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 3 hours ago, Angry Ram said: Brilliant.. ‘Build the wall’ ‘ Get Brexit done’. Two simple sound bites that resonated both sides of the pond. Add ‘Make America great again’ to the US narrative and Bobs your uncle. Chicken dinners all round. Whats the Dems sound bite? Trumps a liar.. Then they consistently fail to prove anything. The income tax debacle when Rachel Baddow got all excited that her station had a copy of his tax return.. So excited, then they realised there was nothing in it. Self destruct at every opportunity.. I would not be surprised if Trump released that himself.. I wonder what Clinton’s tax returns show? The TV adds would be hilarious, if they were not such a sad indictment of today’s society.. Pathetic really. Trump, as much as people hate him, is too clever for the Dems. He speaks to the electorate direct, an electorate that in the main is hugely patriotic and they lap it up. The Dems in essence are not socialists but left leaning liberals and as in the UK Joe average in Moose Butt Alabama, ain’t ready for that. Exactly. You're right about the soundbites. Which takes us back to Labour's Brexit "strategy" at the last election here. In case anyone wants to see what I was talking about, here's the Trump campaign ad I was talking about. I think it's a really interesting window into how politics is done over there: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 3 hours ago, Angry Ram said: Brilliant.. ‘Build the wall’ ‘ Get Brexit done’. Two simple sound bites that resonated both sides of the pond. Add ‘Make America great again’ to the US narrative and Bobs your uncle. Chicken dinners all round. Whats the Dems sound bite? Trumps a liar.. Then they consistently fail to prove anything. The income tax debacle when Rachel Baddow got all excited that her station had a copy of his tax return.. So excited, then they realised there was nothing in it. Self destruct at every opportunity.. I would not be surprised if Trump released that himself.. I wonder what Clinton’s tax returns show? The TV adds would be hilarious, if they were not such a sad indictment of today’s society.. Pathetic really. Trump, as much as people hate him, is too clever for the Dems. He speaks to the electorate direct, an electorate that in the main is hugely patriotic and they lap it up. The Dems in essence are not socialists but left leaning liberals and as in the UK Joe average in Moose Butt Alabama, ain’t ready for that. Even many of the Republican 'jurors' in the Senate admitted that the case against Trump regarding Ukraine was proven (and therefore Trump was lying). They just claimed that his actions weren't enough to get him removed. There surely isn't anyone left that doesn't think Trump is a liar. The fact that it doesn't seem to matter to a large section of the population is the point. I think people are writing off Bernie Sanders way too easily here. First of all, the US can't simply be pigeonholed as a 'socially conservative' country. That's just part of the story. Of course there are a lot of social conservatives there, compared to other western countries (mostly religious), but there is also California and New York etc....the demographics are changing. Secondly in the 2018 midterms, the Democrats got nearly 10 million more votes than the Republican candidates (a cushion of more that 8%). The numbers are still there for the Democrats. Bernie can win in my view....but he probably has 3 different opponents to face. First the Democratic Party establishment who think he is too far left (even though he's pretty much in line economically with FDR...and even to the right of former Republican president Eisenhower on tax. The US has shifted so far to the right after the past number of decades...that people seem to think Bernie is a new breed of politician. Second the incumbent Trump, riding high on the back of a strong economy (the soaring national debt seems to be off the radar). And third the super wealthy, who control large parts of the media, some of whom are genuinely terrified of Sanders. But I really believe the Democrat Party doesn't need to head to the centre to win the Presidential election....that's certainly not how the Republican Party won last time round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BriggRam Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 1 hour ago, WhiteHorseRam said: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51298096 He's carrying on! Only Wednesdays when PMQs is on though mind. Whatever you think of his politics you have to admire his stamina. Should get a knighthood - plenty of others have who have shouted ******* from the sidelines randomly for years and years. Didn’t it come out he was an “actor” being paid £80 a day to dress like a twit and carry on like one also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1of4 Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 11 hours ago, G STAR RAM said: We could actually be making progress here... So voting for a lying bully who's incapable of doing his job, is progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TramRam Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 10 hours ago, GboroRam said: So contrary to what you said, the centrists caused the rise of fascism? Do you have any evidence other than polemic to back up your words, or is it just gut feel stuff? There's no need to bring race into this debate, I don't see what Irish Scaffolders has anything to do with this, I'm off to the football thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted February 8, 2020 Author Share Posted February 8, 2020 54 minutes ago, 1of4 said: So voting for a lying bully who's incapable of doing his job, is progress. No the progress is realising that there are reasons why these sort of people are being voted into power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 12 hours ago, GboroRam said: So contrary to what you said, the centrists caused the rise of fascism? Do you have any evidence other than polemic to back up your words, or is it just gut feel stuff? 1 hour ago, TramRam said: There's no need to bring race into this debate, I don't see what Irish Scaffolders has anything to do with this, I'm off to the football thread. I guess that joke works better when you don't know how polemic is pronounced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1of4 Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said: No the progress is realising that there are reasons why these sort of people are being voted into power. Real progress will happen when the people who voted for these sort of people. Start to realise that what had been promised to them and what they are actually getting are not the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted February 9, 2020 Author Share Posted February 9, 2020 24 minutes ago, 1of4 said: Real progress will happen when the people who voted for these sort of people. Start to realise that what had been promised to them and what they are actually getting are not the same. And do what? Abstain from voting and let people into power that they think will destroy their country? I'd rather protest vote than not vote at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1of4 Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 31 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: And do what? Abstain from voting and let people into power that they think will destroy their country? I'd rather protest vote than not vote at all. How do you cast a protest vote? Because in any election held in this country you vote for someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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