The Politics Thread 2020

[cstand]

1 hour ago, ariotofmyown said:

I for one I'm glad we are out of the EU. It's full of unelected MEPs that were voted in.

Finally, we will be free to trade with who we want. Enough of all that unelected red tape. The country is this article is how the UK will turn out hopefully. It's called democracy!

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/15/us-coronavirus-meat-packing-plants-food

Or we can all become vegetarians and blame the rich, Tories, monarchy, fascists and the Jews for everything.

[Chester40]

6 hours ago, cstand said:

Or we can all become vegetarians and blame the rich, Tories, monarchy, fascists and the Jews for everything.

My kids were watching Mark Rober, a YouTuber and ex-NASA scientist type. 

He is a meat eater who met Bill Gates and talked about plant based diets. 

I am a meat eater with no intention of quitting meat. Yet I sat and watched this 10-15min kids programme really and completely waivered....

Set out with no real agenda in simplistic terms it made me change my whole attitude. 

 

[GB SPORTS]

11 hours ago, cstand said:

All the other things can be done by anyone but not as good as the royal family.

Whaat!!!

[GB SPORTS]

13 hours ago, Eddie said:

I would gladly take greater integration, if the only alternative is the lonely isolationism you seemingly crave.

Then you would get no say whatsoever in the way your life is governed., and if you think i am a brexiteer your wrong i voted to remain.

[G STAR RAM]

8 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

I for one I'm glad we are out of the EU. It's full of unelected MEPs that were voted in.

Finally, we will be free to trade with who we want. Enough of all that unelected red tape. The country is this article is how the UK will turn out hopefully. It's called democracy!

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/15/us-coronavirus-meat-packing-plants-food

What a really very strange article to try and link to Brexit 

[Eddie]

7 hours ago, cstand said:

Or we can all become vegetarians and blame the rich, Tories, monarchy, fascists and the Jews for everything.

Are you suggesting that all vegetarians are anti-semites, or just Jeremy Corbyn's mates?

[Eddie]

39 minutes ago, SIXTEEN AGAIN said:

Then you would get no say whatsoever in the way your life is governed., and if you think i am a brexiteer your wrong i voted to remain.

I don't care which way you voted. I merely pointed out that, giving the choice between total integration or total isolation, I would choose total integration.

[FindernRam]

Changing the flavour a bit anyone care to share what shaped their political views?

I was brought up in a totally socialist household, fairly poor, but not ever wanting for anything important. My father had left the Army as a Sergeant after the war, and was offered some sort of commission to stay on, but he wanted a home life, so returned to his pre-war profession in the printing trade. Became "Father of the Chapel", shop steward to most, low paid in a regional newspaper.. 

Never missed a trick in slagging off "Management", or the Tories.

I left home at 18 came to Derby, Union Member, voted Labour, but was far more open minded and I guess typical teenager, more inclined to reject parental values. At Uni it was obvious very early on that the political agitators were all on courses that didn't require you to do much work, sociology, Art, politics, just a few hours of lectures. We engineers had 20+ hours of lectures plus maybe 10 hours in labs. There was a lot of resentment over how little they did for how much noise they made. Also a lot of us had sandwich courses that put us in real jobs in the real world. 

A first turning point for me was one night late 60's going to a Union meeting a big shiny car pulls up, this guy gets out, climbs in a battered old cortina before driving off. In the meeting this guy appears on the podium talking about them and us, him being a man of the people etc. Memory fades but fairly sure it was George Brown, who true to his principles became a Lord. Cynicism began to set in.

Over the next few years it became evident to me that policies of nationalisation, exorbitant tax rates, out of control Unions just didn't work. I drift into non voting, flirted very briefly with liberalism, kind of as a halfway house, then Tory, not as forever committed but thats pretty much where I am for now. Centre probably describes me best, but politics these days is about extremes. Never became a party member of any persuasion and Union membership lapsed when it was obvious they didn't represent me anymore.

Mid 70's I became a team leader, then a manager, I think, retaining basic socialist humanitarian principals in the way I treated people. My father struggled with the concept of his son as a manager. After he died I was told he had told anybody who'd listen how proud he was of me, but never really told me, and when he found out I had voted tory (late 70's I guess), there were father son talks we never had. Although being 200 miles away had its impact. I regret that to this day.

Made me more a conciliator, facilitator in later life which came in handy for my late career posts. 

[GB SPORTS]

2 hours ago, Eddie said:

I don't care which way you voted. I merely pointed out that, giving the choice between total integration or total isolation, I would choose total integration.

Why is it that stark of a choice? i don't believe it is or will be. At present the EU is far from being integrated it only pretends it is and can be. What purpose does it serve to be a federal Europe? The events of the last three months have almost proven that it is just a franco-germanic axis to achieve political domination of the continent, and i don't really care if you want it (total integration) what i want is the democratic freedom to choose.(either way).

If that means not as good quality of life then so be it.

[ariotofmyown]

3 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

What a really very strange article to try and link to Brexit 

Possibly. Just showed the hopeless lack of worker's rights and terrible way the great democracy of the US has managed the coronavirus.

And how laughable it is to paint the EU as this terrible anti-democratic institution, with the great United States more where we want to be.

[Eddie]

44 minutes ago, SIXTEEN AGAIN said:

Why is it that stark of a choice? i don't believe it is or will be. At present the EU is far from being integrated it only pretends it is and can be. What purpose does it serve to be a federal Europe? The events of the last three months have almost proven that it is just a franco-germanic axis to achieve political domination of the continent, and i don't really care if you want it (total integration) what i want is the democratic freedom to choose.(either way).

If that means not as good quality of life then so be it.

You are arguing just for the sake of it, constructing stupid strawmen as you go.

You will fit in well with a few on here - it's the only way that, in their own minds, they can win an argument.

As for me, after a while,

 

[GB SPORTS]

9 minutes ago, Eddie said:

You are arguing just for the sake of it, constructing stupid strawmen as you go.

You will fit in well with a few on here - it's the only way that, in their own minds, they can win an argument.

As for me, after a while,

 

Then why react Eddie, i don't construct strawmen or whatever the cliche is all i did was say as i saw it from my point of view.

 

A

[G STAR RAM]

1 hour ago, ariotofmyown said:

Possibly. Just showed the hopeless lack of worker's rights and terrible way the great democracy of the US has managed the coronavirus.

And how laughable it is to paint the EU as this terrible anti-democratic institution, with the great United States more where we want to be.

I've not seen anyone say the great United States is more where we want to be, who said that? 

Of course I could post links to articles showing what happened in Italy during their early handling of the coronavirus, and the lack of help they received, and say this shows that the EU is not where we want to be. However, I think using the coronavirus crisis to make this point would be immoral.

[sheeponacid]

On 15/05/2020 at 14:02, cstand said:

If only it was just a trading block of European countries working together but it’s  been ruined by socialists wanting a political union.

I totally disagree, it’s a project that’s been ruined by corporate globalisationists...the idea is sound, it”s actually a lack of socialism that has been its undoing...to many Macrons, Merkels & up until now, the UKs chosen loon.

It’s as a result of these kind of people that the redistribution of wealth hasn’t happened, austerity still haunts far to many areas of the bloc, workers rights are still being stealthily eroded....& it’s also my belief that to often Countries have been invited to join, mainly so the wealthier western EU countries can fuel their industries with cheap labour from said countries.

Environmentally despite having the wealth & public support, these duckers have set targets that are way to soft, their CAPs a deadly plague on biodiversity. Animal welfare standards are set way to low...bans on things like battery farms are a shambles, as demonstrated by the rise of the CAFOs, & bans on antibiotics in meat production a duck wits utopia , everything is easily circumvented because theirs no real will to actually want to change things... to much cash at stake...far better to throw up smoke screens by taking aim at others who are simply even more shockingly diabolical  ...just because some standards are less shizz than others....doesn’t make them good ffs.

Reform of the organisation can’t happen until the corporate globalisationists are ducked off, & there’s no sign of that happening any time soon. Chances to reform come & go, like the 2018 CAP review...biodiversity going to the dogs, subsidies weighted to the landed gentry, soil health on its knees, green houses gases out of kilter...but they just carry on regardless because it suits the affluent & big business...just sugar coat the turd for the gullible masses to lap up...utter f in bamfords...

Socialism is definitely not the problem...the EU has never been socialist it’s always been right leaning...but it could be the solution for what is a great idea...unfortunately just like has happened in this country, the right has infiltrated deep into the left In most of the bloc, to the point we’re the choice now is mostly which right wing option do you want ...Any true left wing leaders are systematically torn down by the media, & hindered by the new breed of slightly softer right wingers who loiter in their parties...Eventually being rendered unelectable in the eyes of much of the public.

An end to the stockpiling of wealth, an end to austerity, proper workers rights, a greener world for all species has, I believe the best prospect for success with socialsm....or better still in my opinion, social anarchism...but this would need a revolution in the current human mindset, the likes of which I won’t see in my lifetime...but socialism would be a very positive start.

The EU would of looked so much different if socialism had in fact driven the project..but it hasn’t, & its baalocks to suggest otherwise.

[Highgate]

You seem to be genuinely angry and frustrated @sheeponacid that environmental concerns are not playing the central role in political decision making that they should be. If that's the case I couldn't agree with you more

[GB SPORTS]

1 hour ago, sheeponacid said:

I totally disagree, it’s a project that’s been ruined by corporate globalisationists...the idea is sound, it”s actually a lack of socialism that has been its undoing...to many Macrons, Merkels & up until now, the UKs chosen loon.

It’s as a result of these kind of people that the redistribution of wealth hasn’t happened, austerity still haunts far to many areas of the bloc, workers rights are still being stealthily eroded....& it’s also my belief that to often Countries have been invited to join, mainly so the wealthier western EU countries can fuel their industries with cheap labour from said countries.

Environmentally despite having the wealth & public support, these duckers have set targets that are way to soft, their CAPs a deadly plague on biodiversity. Animal welfare standards are set way to low...bans on things like battery farms are a shambles, as demonstrated by the rise of the CAFOs, & bans on antibiotics in meat production a duck wits utopia , everything is easily circumvented because theirs no real will to actually want to change things... to much cash at stake...far better to throw up smoke screens by taking aim at others who are simply even more shockingly diabolical  ...just because some standards are less shizz than others....doesn’t make them good ffs.

Reform of the organisation can’t happen until the corporate globalisationists are ducked off, & there’s no sign of that happening any time soon. Chances to reform come & go, like the 2018 CAP review...biodiversity going to the dogs, subsidies weighted to the landed gentry, soil health on its knees, green houses gases out of kilter...but they just carry on regardless because it suits the affluent & big business...just sugar coat the turd for the gullible masses to lap up...utter f in bamfords...

Socialism is definitely not the problem...the EU has never been socialist it’s always been right leaning...but it could be the solution for what is a great idea...unfortunately just like has happened in this country, the right has infiltrated deep into the left In most of the bloc, to the point we’re the choice now is mostly which right wing option do you want ...Any true left wing leaders are systematically torn down by the media, & hindered by the new breed of slightly softer right wingers who loiter in their parties...Eventually being rendered unelectable in the eyes of much of the public.

An end to the stockpiling of wealth, an end to austerity, proper workers rights, a greener world for all species has, I believe the best prospect for success with socialsm....or better still in my opinion, social anarchism...but this would need a revolution in the current human mindset, the likes of which I won’t see in my lifetime...but socialism would be a very positive start.

The EU would of looked so much different if socialism had in fact driven the project..but it hasn’t, & its baalocks to suggest otherwise.

Is your brand of socialism, communism then?

The whole original idea of the EU or EEC as it was capitalism (rightly or wrongly), it should have never strayed from the idea of a common trading bloc in the first place.

Each nation wants more and more from it and there is only so much to go round so the nations who are net contributors kick back and want more say, it was completely unworkable from the start if it ever meant to be a socialist project only the loony left could ever imagine so.

[Eddie]

7 hours ago, SIXTEEN AGAIN said:

Then why react Eddie, i don't construct strawmen or whatever the cliche is all i did was say as i saw it from my point of view.

 

A

All I said was that, given the choice between isolation and integration, I would prefer integration. I honestly cannot fathom why that opinion seems to be a massive bone of contention - co-operation good, confrontation bad. At the end of the day, the debate has been done to death, and at my age, I really no longer give a flying fig.  People who thought differently to me won the day, and we have turned inwards as opposed to outwards.

 

[Stive Pesley]

23 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

The European Commission. 

OK - they are described as:

The Commission was set up from the start to act as an independent supranational authority separate from governments; it has been described as "the only body paid to think European". The members are proposed by their member state governments, one from each. However, they are bound to act independently – free from other influences such as those governments which appointed them. 

So unelected yes, but members proposed by the government that we do elect. What's the problem there? 

I mean, you can't have a union of countries that doesn't have some arbitrary mechanism for trying to govern fairly across the members.  

Could be worse I suppose, you could be Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland. It's the same argument

We want to be a member of an economic union, whilst maintaining the ability to do as we please because we believe ourselves to be the most important nation in said union

 

 

 

 

[G STAR RAM]

11 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

So unelected yes, but members proposed by the government that we do elect. What's the problem there? 

So you must have no problem with Dominic Cummings supposedly having such an influence within No 10?

[cstand]

14 hours ago, Eddie said:

Are you suggesting that all vegetarians are anti-semites, or just Jeremy Corbyn's mates?

The previous poster made a bizarre claim so I thought I would join in with the fun.