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New: Manager or not


RoyMac5

New: Manager or not  

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8 minutes ago, David said:

Way you talk it’s like we’re seeing Dean Moxey play up front, team selections have been mostly forced and players playing out of position like Forsyth are doing so out of necessity.

I know you desperately want to see a forward line of Marriott and Martin given a run but injuries and fitness issues have prevented this. 

I think we’ll see Rooney at CM alongside Knight who deserves a special mention, starting to look a real talent. Bielik in behind them with Lawrence and Waghorn (unless we sign a winger). 

With Bielik and Rooney there’s plenty of fight in the middle which is needed badly now, just hope we can dial Bielik back just a little bit as he was a bit of a madman yesterday, very lucky not to see Red but you can’t fault his determination and commitment. 

Just a thought, Bielik, Rooney and Sibley in midfield, that could be a frightening number of yellow cards! ?

Having that team is all well and good however if it's backed up by either or both Davies and Forsyth then we will still face an uphill battle to make an impact on this league.

Hopefully Rooney can inspire others, however if that's what we are relying on then I would start to question why the manager can't do this.

Maybe your benchmark is different to mine however I haven't seen much yet to say Knight is a talent, he has been steady, good in parts missing in others, haven't seen him command a game, make sublime passes or do anything that made me think wow, this boy is going to the top. That said, he is young, he is playing in a poor side and he may still become a talent, not writing him off though before everyone jumps on my post ?

Cocu has got a massive job on his hands, Rooney coming in should help however he won't be the saviour on his own, if fans believe this to be the case then it could turn even more hostile that it is now, very quickly. His other signings this season, imo will be as key if not more than Rooney and it will not happen overnight, he needs time.

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4 minutes ago, BondJovi said:

You only need to see our results without Mount last season to know the difference one player can make.

Very much this, he was basically the catalyst and we missed him badly and sadly haven’t replaced him.

Was always going to be difficult replacing him and those criticising the Dowell signing now should look back at their posts at the time. Sometimes players and clubs just don’t work and Dowell hasn’t brought the creativity we expected.

Don’t think we can sit here and slam the recruitment team for that one, given the timing of Cocu’s arrival it’s difficult to know how and who he was identified for or how much Cocu knew of him. This is partly why he needs time, flying in on the first day of pre season training was always going to be a rush job of a summer.

So when people ask will Rooney make a difference? Yes!...hopefully!.....as Mount showed, lose that one spark and it has an impact across the team, we need that spark back and I’m hoping next month we don’t just rely on Rooney to bring that but bring in additional creativity. 

As badly as we need defensive reinforcements, any money spent needs to be focused on getting the ball in the other net as without that we’re not going to win many games. 

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8 minutes ago, chadlad said:

We are not improving, we are getting worse with each game. Perhaps Rooney will make a difference, perhaps he won’t. League 1 is a possibility and for me and many other Derby fans L1 is oblivion...

League 1 isn’t oblivion, look at Leeds right now. 

Whilst I’m not sticking fingers in my ears and pretending relegation is not a possibility, it is, we’re not too big, good or clever to go down, it’s just a little too soon to be hitting that panic button for my liking. 

Wouldn’t agree we are getting worse each game either, despite the result which is obviously the only thing that matters, our performance away at Reading showed real fight, was an improvement to what we have seen on the road recently, sadly we didn’t build on that yesterday but hopefully, everything crossed the new year brings new hope and turn this season around. ?

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27 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

I am really not sure how much difference Rooney will make and I am really not sure it is anything but hopeful to believe that his arrival will galvanise the players.

It’s more likely that he will look like the Rooney we saw under Capello at the 2010  World Cup and under Hodgson at Euro 2016.

Underperforming and uninspiring.

This group of players have been completely stripped of confidence, morale and cohesion.

Why is Rooney going to be immune from that?

 

In a sense the “Rooney as player” is a strong indicator of just how grim {or not} things are. If we suddenly start scoring more goals and winning more games and moving up the table it will “legitimise” Cocu; If we continue in decline it will indicate just how dire things have become. 
My own view is that one player will not turn things around. Rooney has been present for a few weeks now and if anything our performances have become even more turgid and lacklustre; but of course I will hold my hands up and say if I’m wrong. 

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No ...still in for me......

Still maintain he has had a really bad pack of cards dealt him, if anything he should be the one questioning if we are for him not the other way round.

1. Little to No valuable pre-season

2. Earliest transfer window closed ever in a time we could do nothing because Lampard was too busy drinking Pina Coladas than considering his current employer (or his new one), and Chelsea allowing him to pull the strings.

3. Lawrence/Bennett/Keogh - this on its own would have a massive impact on any club.

4. Injuries. Even some of those back are clearly not fit, bogle, bielek, forsyth (massive for him to even put in this number of games after that injury),

Just my view, but after all that if Mel does sack him them we deserve to go down.

If we go down so what, we pay to watch Derby County regardless of where they are, i will still go.

We wont anyway.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

Having that team is all well and good however if it's backed up by either or both Davies and Forsyth then we will still face an uphill battle to make an impact on this league.

Hopefully Rooney can inspire others, however if that's what we are relying on then I would start to question why the manager can't do this.

Maybe your benchmark is different to mine however I haven't seen much yet to say Knight is a talent, he has been steady, good in parts missing in others, haven't seen him command a game, make sublime passes or do anything that made me think wow, this boy is going to the top. That said, he is young, he is playing in a poor side and he may still become a talent, not writing him off though before everyone jumps on my post ?

Cocu has got a massive job on his hands, Rooney coming in should help however he won't be the saviour on his own, if fans believe this to be the case then it could turn even more hostile that it is now, very quickly. His other signings this season, imo will be as key if not more than Rooney and it will not happen overnight, he needs time.

I dont think we'll see much more of Davies & Forsyth as a partnership. Clarke is due back shortly & I would think bringing in a CB is a top priority in the Jan window, hence the rumours re Benkovic.

Agree we shouldnt necessarily see Rooney as the answer to our current woes but its undeniable that his key traits (energy, invention, willingness to get on the ball) are exactly what we're missing currently. I just hope he is played in midfield as think we'll see a very different output from Martin, Marriott and Waghorn with him supplying some decent service.

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6 minutes ago, David said:

League 1 isn’t oblivion, look at Leeds right now. 

Whilst I’m not sticking fingers in my ears and pretending relegation is not a possibility, it is, we’re not too big, good or clever to go down, it’s just a little too soon to be hitting that panic button for my liking. 

Wouldn’t agree we are getting worse each game either, despite the result which is obviously the only thing that matters, our performance away at Reading showed real fight, was an improvement to what we have seen on the road recently, sadly we didn’t build on that yesterday but hopefully, everything crossed the new year brings new hope and turn this season around. ?

For every Leeds and Man City (big clubs) there is a Bradford, Bolton or Coventry.  Look at the mess Sunderland have made of it since they got relegated. Portsmouth ended up going down again.  My fear is that IF we go down, Cocu will not be right for league one.  We will then have potentially wasted any 'reduced' budget through any signings he makes in January 2020.

We would also potentially be in a horrendous position financially carrying the likes of Lawrence for another 4 years of what I would imagine is a big wage (although I accept they may be clauses in contrast).  Rooney would have another year even with any 'supplement'.

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21 minutes ago, BondJovi said:

You only need to see our results without Mount last season to know the difference one player can make.

Our worst run of the season coincided with Mount’s spell on the sidelines, that is fair to say.

But does that mean Mount made all the difference?

Mount had a creditable season, but I think some people overstate his influence. He had plenty of poor games and plenty of games where his influence was peripheral.

Lampard also got strong performances out of six or seven other players - Roos, Bogle, Tomori, Keogh, Johnson, Wilson and Waghorn - all of whom would have been missed just as much.

One player can make some difference in the sense that he can be the right fit, but you still need a large number of players also at their best to get anywhere.

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4 minutes ago, GrimsbyRam said:

For every Leeds and Man City (big clubs) there is a Bradford, Bolton or Coventry.  Look at the mess Sunderland have made of it since they got relegated. Portsmouth ended up going down again.  My fear is that IF we go down, Cocu will not be right for league one.  We will then have potentially wasted any 'reduced' budget through any signings he makes in January 2020.

We would also potentially be in a horrendous position financially carrying the likes of Lawrence for another 4 years of what I would imagine is a big wage (although I accept they may be clauses in contrast).  Rooney would have another year even with any 'supplement'.

Of course, as I say I don’t really want to think about relegation as many have proven it’s a difficult place to come back from, even my Leeds example wasn’t a straight forward return to where they are now. 

Getting rid of the manager hours away from the transfer window where he has had time to work with what we have and identify players to come in would be a bold move, as we’re essentially playing out the summer again, rush a new manager in, chuck our list of players on his desk and quick, tell us who you want.

Around the end of February is when we need to start looking and questioning are we in serious danger of going down before looking for the till the end of the season rescue us please Sam options. 

I can’t see us accepted relegation at all.

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28 minutes ago, chadlad said:

We are not improving, we are getting worse with each game. Perhaps Rooney will make a difference, perhaps he won’t. League 1 is a possibility and for me and many other Derby fans L1 is oblivion...

Oblivion is where Bury and, potentially, Macclesfield find themselves.  We’ve come close in the past.  Relegation definitely isn’t oblivion.  I accept it’s a possibility but don’t believe it will happen.

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11 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

I dont think we'll see much more of Davies & Forsyth as a partnership. Clarke is due back shortly & I would think bringing in a CB is a top priority in the Jan window, hence the rumours re Benkovic.

Agree we shouldnt necessarily see Rooney as the answer to our current woes but its undeniable that his key traits (energy, invention, willingness to get on the ball) are exactly what we're missing currently. I just hope he is played in midfield as think we'll see a very different output from Martin, Marriott and Waghorn with him supplying some decent service.

Don't get me wrong, he will have a positive impact, a player like him can't not and he as you allude to has attributes that are missing within the team.

We need a spine to the team and he will give us part of that, he can't do it alone though, hopefully Clarke will be back soon, Huddlestone to, they will help with adding quality to the squad and a few good additions and you never know....

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6 minutes ago, Paul71 said:

No ...still in for me......

Still maintain he has had a really bad pack of cards dealt him, if anything he should be the one questioning if we are for him not the other way round.

1. Little to No valuable pre-season

2. Earliest transfer window closed ever in a time we could do nothing because Lampard was too busy drinking Pina Coladas than considering his current employer (or his new one), and Chelsea allowing him to pull the strings.

3. Lawrence/Bennett/Keogh - this on its own would have a massive impact on any club.

4. Injuries. Even some of those back are clearly not fit, bogle, bielek, forsyth (massive for him to even put in this number of games after that injury),

Just my view, but after all that if Mel does sack him them we deserve to go down.

If we go down so what, we pay to watch Derby County regardless of where they are, i will still go.

We wont anyway.

 

 

Am sorry but some of the reasons you give just aren't valid:-

1. Pre-season - it's now nearly January, when do we stop keep using the lack of pre-season as an excuse?

2. Transfer window - we still managed to get Bielek, Shinnie, Dowell, Paterson in - whether they are good enough or not remains debatable. 

3. Lawrence/Bennett/Keogh - read some of the threads about Lawrence on here, some are advocating rightly or wrongly that Lawrence getting suspended is a good thing as it means he's not available to play. Bennett hardly gets near the first team so again isn't a massive miss. 

4. Injuries - part and parcel of the remit of any good football manager to deal with - or not deal with by not exploiting the players Cocu has left at his disposal through coaching , mentoring, developing, building them around a system rather then tinkering week in week out.

To say if we go down so what is such a casual throwaway comment.

Jury's out whether we will get ensconced in a relegation battle but if we don't it would mean something radically different will have to be done by Cocu and at this juncture I can't see that happening. Hoping to be proved wrong or someone else makes the decision for Cocu. 

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27 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

I dont think we'll see much more of Davies & Forsyth as a partnership. Clarke is due back shortly & I would think bringing in a CB is a top priority in the Jan window, hence the rumours re Benkovic.

Agree we shouldnt necessarily see Rooney as the answer to our current woes but its undeniable that his key traits (energy, invention, willingness to get on the ball) are exactly what we're missing currently. I just hope he is played in midfield as think we'll see a very different output from Martin, Marriott and Waghorn with him supplying some decent service.

Totally agree with this and thank you for mentioning that the defence Cocu is currently deploying is out of necessity rather than preference. Let's see what January brings.

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11 minutes ago, Coolascustard said:

Oblivion is where Bury and, potentially, Macclesfield find themselves.  We’ve come close in the past.  Relegation definitely isn’t oblivion.  I accept it’s a possibility but don’t believe it will happen.

Hang on, are you seriously comparing us with Bury and Macclesfield. I would go with Coventry, Bolton, Sunderland, Portsmouth and others who have found themselves in a downward spiral. 

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14 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Am sorry but some of the reasons you give just aren't valid:-

1. Pre-season - it's now nearly January, when do we stop keep using the lack of pre-season as an excuse?

2. Transfer window - we still managed to get Bielek, Shinnie, Dowell, Paterson in - whether they are good enough or not remains debatable. 

3. Lawrence/Bennett/Keogh - read some of the threads about Lawrence on here, some are advocating rightly or wrongly that Lawrence getting suspended is a good thing as it means he's not available to play. Bennett hardly gets near the first team so again isn't a massive miss. 

4. Injuries - part and parcel of the remit of any good football manager to deal with - or not deal with by not exploiting the players Cocu has left at his disposal through coaching , mentoring, developing, building them around a system rather then tinkering week in week out.

To say if we go down so what is such a casual throwaway comment.

Jury's out whether we will get ensconced in a relegation battle but if we don't it would mean something radically different will have to be done by Cocu and at this juncture I can't see that happening. Hoping to be proved wrong or someone else makes the decision for Cocu. 

Look at Man City, they have been struggling with injuries and have arguably one of the best managers in the league. 
 

Klopp, SAF and Pep all "struggled" to implement their style within the first season, wonder how many fans wanted them out at the time.

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7 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

Look at Man City, they have been struggling with injuries and have arguably one of the best managers in the league. 
 

Klopp, SAF and Pep all "struggled" to implement their style within the first season, wonder how many fans wanted them out at the time.

If your definition of struggling is being 3rd in the Premiership after half a season played then we have different definitions of the word. If that is struggling how would you define our current tribulations.

Klopp did introduce his high tempo pressing style from the offset at Liverpool, compare and contrast the style Cocu is trying to implement which genuinely I can't even try and describe or even say what he is meant to be implementing to the casual observer. 

And please don't mention Farke at Norwich. 

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22 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Am sorry but some of the reasons you give just aren't valid:-

1. Pre-season - it's now nearly January, when do we stop keep using the lack of pre-season as an excuse? - When he has had a proper pre-season.

2. Transfer window - we still managed to get Bielek, Shinnie, Dowell, Paterson in - whether they are good enough or not remains debatable. Shinnie was not his signing, Bielek probably and looks good, the others no more than getting bodies on board as very little time.

3. Lawrence/Bennett/Keogh - read some of the threads about Lawrence on here, some are advocating rightly or wrongly that Lawrence getting suspended is a good thing as it means he's not available to play. Bennett hardly gets near the first team so again isn't a massive miss.  Bennett started the last game he was available for, hard to get picked when injured. Those saying lawrence out is a good thing, maybe...i dont agree but some clearly dont like him.

4. Injuries - part and parcel of the remit of any good football manager to deal with - or not deal with by not exploiting the players Cocu has left at his disposal through coaching , mentoring, developing, building them around a system rather then tinkering week in week out.  Of course when you have such injuries with few players to replace then its a big issue

To say if we go down so what is such a casual throwaway comment. Not to me  i will support them come what may.....

Jury's out whether we will get ensconced in a relegation battle but if we don't it would mean something radically different will have to be done by Cocu and at this juncture I can't see that happening. Hoping to be proved wrong or someone else makes the decision for Cocu. 

Only invalid in your opinion. Just because its your opinion doesnt mean your is the only valid one.

 

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People mention the two most successful managers in England - Klopp and Guardiola - needing time to get it right.

But they also needed a lot of money too!

Even if you scale that down to Championship level, it is asking for the kind of investment we are unlikely to be able to provide.

I get the impression Cocu doesn’t have the luxury.

And if he does, would you trust him - with only 6 months of experience in English football - and the recruitment team to identify the right kind of players to remedy the situation?

This is why you need a manager who knows the division and can get the best out of what he has.

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