17/18 Financial Results

[G STAR RAM]

15 minutes ago, therealhantsram said:

This chart is just broadly labeled "income" so I presume includes income from player sales. 

The other chart in David's post lists "Commercial Income" at 21m for Leeds vs 16m for Villa and 13m for Derby.

So they're still way ahead of us, but 'only' by 8m not 13m.

One report I read said Leeds brought catering back in house in 2017 boosting commercial revenue by 4m. Isn't Derby's provided by a separate company?

Isn't it a joint venture with Delaware? 

[ram59]

Like it or not, I'm afraid the dirties are a much bigger attraction than we are both nationally and internationally. 

This will reflect in shirt and souvenir sales, TV revenue and with the extra tv coverage comes better commercial contracts for ground advertising, shirt sponsorship etc, etc. 

[RamNut]

2 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Aren't the losses you're quoting there the accounting losses? 

Academy expenditure to be added back of circa £4m/£5m? (Think MM quoted £26m spent on it since takeover in 2014)

Maybe. I don't think that we know the exact ffp figures. But if the academy spend can be discounted then it is the same or similar  for every year, and therefore it would still be a sudden leap of @£20m in additional losses for @David 's argument to hold up.

 

[Day]

6 minutes ago, RamNut said:

Really?

Lose @£8m. Then Make @15m.....for the final year to be within 100k of the £39m limit, then the projected loss for the third year would have to be a loss of @£46m.

Is it really likely that we'd have a projected loss of £46m, the year after a loss of £25m (prior to tne sale of the ground) ?

No idea what the accounts will look like for this season, but again the 100k was used as an example of how tight it can be, at no point was it suggested we are 100k or have been that close so don’t hold on to that number. 

 

[RamNut]

9 minutes ago, David said:

No idea what the accounts will look like for this season, but again the 100k was used as an example of how tight it can be, at no point was it suggested we are 100k or have been that close so don’t hold on to that number. 

 

From memory - and i can't be bothered to look it up - he wasn't referring to some hypothetical situation that might apply to some unknown club; he was implying how tight it was for us. But its garbage. We weren't playing with fine margins at all.

he could just say how ffp non-compliance had really been avoided. Why didn't they say anything about selling the ground and smashing it. It would have been big news. 

He was implying that close financial scrutiny was required week by week to stay the right side of the line. This seemed to support the previous posts by @Ramleicester that the executive had done a great job negotiating and ensuring compliance. None of that seems to be true. Mel just played a joker.

[Rev]

14 minutes ago, David said:

No idea what the accounts will look like for this season, but again the 100k was used as an example of how tight it can be, at no point was it suggested we are 100k or have been that close so don’t hold on to that number. 

 

We've been that close in the past haven't we?

£7.9m losses Vs £8m allowable under the previous regime, but I can see why people would feel it must be relevent now, seeing as he bought it up unprompted during a discussion on FFP. 

I'll be honest, I'd be more comfortable if the club had announced this move prior to the fans forum, and had answered the questions that would have arisen there and then.

That was the perfect opportunity to explain the deal in front of a compliant audience and get the reasons across to the fanbase, now it's open season for speculation, with some reason, after all if it's no big deal and is in the best interests of the club, why hide it?

[Ghost of Clough]

35 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Aren't the losses you're quoting there the accounting losses? 

Academy expenditure to be added back of circa £4m/£5m? (Think MM quoted £26m spent on it since takeover in 2014)

 

27 minutes ago, RamNut said:

Maybe. I don't think that we know the exact ffp figures. But if the academy spend can be discounted then it is the same or similar  for every year, and therefore it would still be a sudden leap of @£20m in additional losses for @David 's argument to hold up.

 

15/16 - £14.7m loss = £9m FFP loss (£5.7m difference)

14/15 - £10.1m loss = £5.6m FFP loss (£4.5m difference)

 

I swear I read academy costs have since risen to the £6m mark

 

Edit: I was thinking of the 16/17 academy accounts (13 months up to 30th June ‘17

[Day]

Just now, RamNut said:

From memory - and i can't be bothered to look it up - he wasn't referring to some hypothetical situation that might apply to some unknown club; he was implying how tight it was for us. But its garbage. We weren't playing with fine margins at all.

he could just say how ffp non-compliance had really been avoided. Why didn't they day anything about selling the ground and smashing it. It would have been big news. 

He was implying that close financial scrutiny was required week by week to stay the right side of the line. This seemed to support the previous posts by @Ramleicester that the executive had done a great job negotiating and ensuring compliance. None of that seems to be true. Mel just played a joker.

Rather than go off memory, why don’t you actually go back and watch it? 24 minutes, takes a couple of minutes of your time. You might realise he wasn’t implying we were within 100k, it was just an example of how tight it can be. Please go and watch it.

Apologies if I’m getting frustrated but I’ve posted this several times today and those that disagree either haven’t or were unwilling to actually watch the forum back. Some that attended and thought the same have gone back to watch now agree. 

24 minutes. Here’s the link https://www.dcfc.co.uk/news/2019/03/watch-the-fans-forum-in-full

I even posted the exact quote earlier. 

“You can be within 100k of the actual limits which you know can change on the gate of the game or what we sell in terms of the concessions in the concourse”

It all comes down the club not willing to give cup vouchers because whilst FFP is tight they simply can’t afford to. That’s it. And to be honest it’s nothing new, we’ve heard time and time again how important ticket revenue is to Championship clubs, where as in the Premier League it’s a different story which is why Mel was willing to refund season ticket money if we went up.

Having heard we are up against it and for the question to be even asked boggles the mind to be honest, but there you go. 

[Day]

11 minutes ago, reveldevil said:

We've been that close in the past haven't we?

£7.9m losses Vs £8m allowable under the previous regime, but I can see why people would feel it must be relevent now, seeing as he bought it up unprompted during a discussion on FFP. 

I'll be honest, I'd be more comfortable if the club had announced this move prior to the fans forum, and had answered the questions that would have arisen there and then.

That was the perfect opportunity to explain the deal in front of a compliant audience and get the reasons across to the fanbase, now it's open season for speculation, with some reason, after all if it's no big deal and is in the best interests of the club, why hide it?

Wouldn’t say it was unprompted, was simply expanding on Mel’s answer. 

I honestly don’t know why they chose to announce it after the forum rather than prior or even on the night, I’m sure that question will be asked at the next forum along with the rental terms, length of lease etc.

There is also a supporters charter meeting at the end of the month, feel free to submit a question in the pinned topic for us to put to the club. 

[richinspain]

I can understand them not announcing the news at the fan's forum. Those that went would have had their questions planned and throwing out this news would have brought badly thought out questions from all over the floor. We've seen on this thread how so many are asking the same questions worded differently. Why they didn't announce it beforehand is another matter, as it couldn't be a decision that was taken two days after the forum took place. Someone even suggested that the new company appeared months ago so plans were obviously put in place a good while back. As I said, not surprised that it wasn't announced on the night, but I don't understand why they waited until the accounts were published to do so.

[RamNut]

1 hour ago, David said:

Rather than go off memory, why don’t you actually go back and watch it? 24 minutes, takes a couple of minutes of your time. 

.....because i've been at work for 12 hours.

The point is we were either millions under or millions over.

they could have just come out with it - we've sold the ground - and that has sorted compliance for the next two years. But they didn't want to tell us for some reason. 

economical with the truth is the phrase that comes to mind. 

[Day]

1 minute ago, RamNut said:

.....because i've been at work for 12 hours.

The point is we were either millions under or millions over.

they could have just come out with it - we've sold the ground - and that has sorted compliance for the next two years. But they didn't want to tell us for some reason. 

economical with the truth is the phrase that comes to mind. 

Well that wasn’t the point, it was the 100k and the reason I stepped in this morning was to correct the accusation that the club had lied by @Mucker1884 but ok. 

[RamNut]

They haven't exactly been honest either. 

It would be interesting to know when the stadium was sold. 

i heard about the plans for the roof in January and was told it was hush hush for some reason. And it seems to have still been hush hush at the the forum too. I can only only speak for myself, but its left a bit of a sour taste that they kept the sale quiet.

I wonder what answer i would have got if i had asked my question instead of letting others have a chance to speak. 

P.s. Mel - i'm not particularly keen on watching football played in a polytunnel either.

[Inglorius]

Am disappointed but not surprised that more posters haven't commented on the post by @i-Ram 

Morris is a financial whizz by applying an accounting ruse to sell our ground and avoid a loss of £25 million and he should be applauded for that 

Let's go over that figure again as it deserves a second inspection - £25 million loss. That's some number. Hardly what you'd expect to be seeing from an owner whose meant to be the custodian of the club's finances but find's it easier to slopy shoulder the blame onto staff no longer working in the club. 

I'd call that gross financial mis management or fiduciary negligence to paraphrase the same person. Yet we are seeing the accolades and plaudits being handed out on here for such an amazing masterstroke.

I'm not even going to try and be an apologist, that's rank mismanagement by the owner and he deserves to be called out on the matter and he deserves all the criticism coming his way. The fact that this is next to nothing is even more amazing given that he has got the club into a huge financial hole that he has had to circumnavigate by applying an accounting trick.

Very poor all round and needs to be viewed as such.

[AdamRam]

Not watched the forum so don’t know about the 100k, however the club have said on a few occasions it’s not possible to guarantee we are going to be under the threshold.

i suppose it depends on the actual date for the sale, but by keeping it quiet and sending out the message that we are so close to FFP you have to wonder why they kept it so quiet.

[Inglorius]

1 minute ago, AdamRam said:

Not watched the forum so don’t know about the 100k, however the club have said on a few occasions it’s not possible to guarantee we are going to be under the threshold.

i suppose it depends on the actual date for the sale, but by keeping it quiet and sending out the message that we are so close to FFP you have to wonder why they kept it so quiet.

Easiest path to take to avoid criticism at an open forum? Comes across as very cowardly.

[Ghost of Clough]

Over the 3 year period, we may be very close to the £39m P&S limit. If you add academy costs and other exemptions to that, it's around the £55.5m mark. In 16/17 we lost £7.9m, in 17/18 we lost £24.4m (not counting the stadium sale). If the stadium sale has zero impact of P&S, that means we can only make a loss in the region of £23.3m. We may not be far off this figure.

[G STAR RAM]

8 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Over the 3 year period, we may be very close to the £39m P&S limit. If you add academy costs and other exemptions to that, it's around the £55.5m mark. In 16/17 we lost £7.9m, in 17/18 we lost £24.4m (not counting the stadium sale). If the stadium sale has zero impact of P&S, that means we can only make a loss in the region of £23.3m. We may not be far off this figure.

I've seen lots of people saying we had to sell the ground to comply with FFP, but not one has been able to confirm that the transaction actually qualifies to be included in the FFP calculation! 

[AdamRam]

3 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

I've seen lots of people saying we had to sell the ground to comply with FFP, but not one has been able to confirm that the transaction actually qualifies to be included in the FFP calculation! 

Without the facts though people will continue to speculate.

[Mihangel]

32 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

Not watched the forum so don’t know about the 100k, however the club have said on a few occasions it’s not possible to guarantee we are going to be under the threshold.

i suppose it depends on the actual date for the sale, but by keeping it quiet and sending out the message that we are so close to FFP you have to wonder why they kept it so quiet.

I appreciate that some of you are somewhat suspicious of Morris, his motives and actions but you have to conceded the £100k suggestion as false - As @David has repeatedly demonstrated, there was no implication in Pearce's words, it was a simple analogy. There was no message.

In any case, I keep reading about the club 'keeping this quiet', about the roof (FFS), the ground sale and FFP in general. That's business, that's life - Any organisation, ESPECIALLY a football club has to work hard to keep things confidential. It's not being devious or underhand, it's the only practical way you can conduct business without chaos. It may be a terrible analogy but if one is buying a house, one may tell one's nearest and dearest, those one trusts that you're interested, you probably won't put all the nitty gritty in the public space for all and sundry to see....