17/18 Financial Results

[G STAR RAM]

2 minutes ago, ShoreRam said:

I appreciate that some of you are somewhat suspicious of Morris, his motives and actions but you have to conceded the £100k suggestion as false - As @David has repeatedly demonstrated, there was no implication in Pearce's words, it was a simple analogy. There was no message.

In any case, I keep reading about the club 'keeping this quiet', about the roof (FFS), the ground sale and FFP in general. That's business, that's life - Any organisation, ESPECIALLY a football club has to work hard to keep things confidential. It's not being devious or underhand, it's the only practical way you can conduct business without chaos. It may be a terrible analogy but if one is buying a house, one may tell one's nearest and dearest, those one trusts that you're interested, you probably won't put all the nitty gritty in the public space for all and sundry to see....

I agree with keeping your business under wraps generally.

However, to sit there in a 90 minute forum pleading poverty and not even mentioning the biggest financial transaction in our history, as I previously, said is disingenuous. 

As far as I can see, we are either close to FFP limits or tens of millions within them.

If we are close to the limits then the logic of moving the ground out of the club.

If we are tens of millions within the limits then basically they've pulled the wool over the fans eyes.

Can't say I'm too bothered because I still trust MM and at the end of the day the football is all I really care about.

Just left a slightly bitter taste though.

[AdamRam]

3 minutes ago, ShoreRam said:

I appreciate that some of you are somewhat suspicious of Morris, his motives and actions but you have to conceded the £100k suggestion as false - As @David has repeatedly demonstrated, there was no implication in Pearce's words, it was a simple analogy. There was no message.

In any case, I keep reading about the club 'keeping this quiet', about the roof (FFS), the ground sale and FFP in general. That's business, that's life - Any organisation, ESPECIALLY a football club has to work hard to keep things confidential. It's not being devious or underhand, it's the only practical way you can conduct business without chaos. It may be a terrible analogy but if one is buying a house, one may tell one's nearest and dearest, those one trusts that you're interested, you probably won't put all the nitty gritty in the public space for all and sundry to see....

A date has been quoted as being 10 months ago, the club promote a open and honest ethos, holiding a forum just one week before announcing the sale. Now tell me again if everything was signed, sealed and delivered why not announce it then and go into more detail around the reasons and impact ?

Maybe then people would be less voca if we knew the background behind the sale rather than having to speculate and guess.

[Ghost of Clough]

16 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

A date has been quoted as being 10 months ago, the club promote a open and honest ethos, holiding a forum just one week before announcing the sale. Now tell me again if everything was signed, sealed and delivered why not announce it then and go into more detail around the reasons and impact ?

Maybe then people would be less voca if we knew the background behind the sale rather than having to speculate and guess.

The EFL / independent panel may have requested for the club not to disclose it before the financial results were due.

[AdamRam]

7 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

The EFL / independent panel may have requested for the club not to disclose it before the financial results were due.

Maybe, although I thought the timings for this were June, when you have to submit the forecast for the forthcoming season ? 

[Spanish]

10 hours ago, David said:

Wouldn’t say it was unprompted, was simply expanding on Mel’s answer. 

I honestly don’t know why they chose to announce it after the forum rather than prior or even on the night, I’m sure that question will be asked at the next forum along with the rental terms, length of lease etc.

There is also a supporters charter meeting at the end of the month, feel free to submit a question in the pinned topic for us to put to the club. 

maybe they were still waiting on formal EFL approval?

[RamNut]

10 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

 

15/16 - £14.7m loss = £9m FFP loss (£5.7m difference)

14/15 - £10.1m loss = £5.6m FFP loss (£4.5m difference)

 

I swear I read academy costs have since risen to the £6m mark

 

Edit: I was thinking of the 16/17 academy accounts (13 months up to 30th June ‘17

What is the relevance of the tangible assets page? I know it relates to the ground, just not sure how it relates to your post?

[G STAR RAM]

16 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

The EFL / independent panel may have requested for the club not to disclose it before the financial results were due.

In which they should have been told to mind their own business. 

If they didn't want any disclosures made in relation to FFP then that's fine. (I still don't think that DCFC have mentioned the ground sale and FFP in the same sentence.

[G STAR RAM]

4 minutes ago, RamNut said:

What is the relevance of the tangible assets page? I know it relates to the ground, just not sure how it relates to your post?

They are the academy accounts and nothing to do with the ground.

Think they were posted to show the losses being made.

[Spanish]

4 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

In which they should have been told to mind their own business. 

If they didn't want any disclosures made in relation to FFP then that's fine. (I still don't think that DCFC have mentioned the ground sale and FFP in the same sentence.

I think it is a bit risky to tell them to duck off, there is usually an alternative route to get around issues whilst avoiding direct confrontation.  

[Ghost of Clough]

2 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

Maybe, although I thought the timings for this were June, when you have to submit the forecast for the forthcoming season ? 

Championship clubs should have a financial year ending in May, June or July. By the 1st March, all clubs must provide the 2 previous financial reports plus a projection for the current season to the EFL. During March (and April in rare circumstances), these reports are analysed. Prior to the March just gone (I imagine fairly close to the deadline), 16/17 and 17/18 reports, plus 18/19 projections were sent in to the EFL and approved.

[RamNut]

9 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

They are the academy accounts and nothing to do with the ground.

Think they were posted to show the losses being made.

Fair enough. I was too daft to read the title. 

[i-Ram]

1 hour ago, Inglorius said:

I am disappointed but not surprised that more posters haven't commented on the post by @i-Ram 

Morris is a financial whizz by applying an accounting ruse to sell our ground and avoid a loss of £25 million and he should be applauded for that 

Let's go over that figure again as it deserves a second inspection - £25 million loss. That's some number. Hardly what you'd expect to be seeing from an owner whose meant to be the custodian of the club's finances but find's it easier to slopy shoulder the blame onto staff no longer working in the club. 

I'd call that gross financial mis management or fiduciary negligence to paraphrase the same person. Yet we are seeing the accolades and plaudits being handed out on here for such an amazing masterstroke.

I'm not even going to try and be an apologist, that's rank mismanagement by the owner and he deserves to be called out on the matter and he deserves all the criticism coming his way. The fact that this is next to nothing is even more amazing given that he has got the club into a huge financial hole that he has had to circumnavigate by applying an accounting trick.

Very poor all round and needs to be viewed as such.

Apropos of nothing.

”Finally, the weavers report that the suit is finished and they mime dress the emperor who then marches in procession before his subjects. The townsfolk uncomfortably go along with the pretense, not wanting to challenge or be stupid. Finally, a child in the crowd blurts out that the emperor is wearing nothing at all and the cry is then taken up by others. The emperor realises the assertion is true but continues the procession”.

For those not familiar with the work of Hans Christian Andersen he plays left back for F C Copenhagen.

[AdamRam]

1 minute ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Championship clubs should have a financial year ending in May, June or July. By the 1st March, all clubs must provide the 2 previous financial reports plus a projection for the current season to the EFL. During March (and April in rare circumstances), these reports are analysed. Prior to the March just gone (I imagine fairly close to the deadline), 16/17 and 17/18 reports, plus 18/19 projections were sent in to the EFL and approved.

Could be then, I remain doubtful but who knows.

I see the accounts are now being processed at companies house, not long before that can take over the debate ?

[Ghost of Clough]

11 hours ago, RamNut said:

Maybe. I don't think that we know the exact ffp figures. But if the academy spend can be discounted then it is the same or similar  for every year, and therefore it would still be a sudden leap of @£20m in additional losses for @David 's argument to hold up.

 

 

16 minutes ago, RamNut said:

What is the relevance of the tangible assets page? I know it relates to the ground, just not sure how it relates to your post?

I was shedding a bit of light on you not knowing the exact P&S (FFP) figures. Basically, P&S exemptions will be in the region of £5.5m to £6.0m.

[G STAR RAM]

2 minutes ago, Spanish said:

I think it is a bit risky to tell them to duck off, there is usually an alternative route to get around issues whilst avoiding direct confrontation.  

The EFL have no right or not jurisdiction in telling a private limited company that it cannot report the sale of an asset. 

Sure they can ask not to make any disclosures in relation  to FFP but beyond that they would have no powers. 

[RamNut]

14 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

 

I was shedding a bit of light on you not knowing the exact P&S (FFP) figures. Basically, P&S exemptions will be in the region of £5.5m to £6.0m.

Yes i understood the first bit. 

I think @G STAR RAM has nailed it though.

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

I agree with keeping your business under wraps generally.

However, to sit there in a 90 minute forum pleading poverty and not even mentioning the biggest financial transaction in our history, as I previously, said is disingenuous. 

As far as I can see, we are either close to FFP limits or tens of millions within them.

If we are close to the limits then the logic of moving the ground out of the club.

If we are tens of millions within the limits then basically they've pulled the wool over the fans eyes.

Can't say I'm too bothered because I still trust MM and at the end of the day the football is all I really care about.

Just left a slightly bitter taste though.

I'm not quite as positive. I feel like i've just bought a years supply of snake oil.

[G STAR RAM]

10 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

Apropos of nothing.

”Finally, the weavers report that the suit is finished and they mime dress the emperor who then marches in procession before his subjects. The townsfolk uncomfortably go along with the pretense, not wanting to challenge or be stupid. Finally, a child in the crowd blurts out that the emperor is wearing nothing at all and the cry is then taken up by others. The emperor realises the assertion is true but continues the procession”.

For those not familiar with the work of Hans Christian Andersen he plays left back for F C Copenhagen.

Should sign him, been saying for ages we should sign foreign players.

Perhaps we could even sell our ground to raise some funds...oh wait...

[Spanish]

1 minute ago, G STAR RAM said:

The EFL have no right or not jurisdiction in telling a private limited company that it cannot report the sale of an asset. 

Sure they can ask not to make any disclosures in relation  to FFP but beyond that they would have no powers. 

I'm not arguing that all I'm saying is tweaking the nose of those that have ultimate power (even if you have the right) is not a good idea.  But if you don't want to hear that so be it

[RamNut]

7 minutes ago, Spanish said:

I'm not arguing that all I'm saying is tweaking the nose of those that have ultimate power (even if you have the right) is not a good idea.  But if you don't want to hear that so be it

I don't think he meant literally to tell them to f. Off,

he just meant that they don't have the authority to instruct the club in the manner that you suggested. And why would they anyway? If its a legitimate ffp get out of gaol strategy.

 

[G STAR RAM]

9 minutes ago, Spanish said:

I'm not arguing that all I'm saying is tweaking the nose of those that have ultimate power (even if you have the right) is not a good idea.  But if you don't want to hear that so be it

If DCFC came out and said that then of course I would accept it.

The fact that it was disclosed just a few days after the forum, and was not even alluded to though, would make it doubtful.