17/18 Financial Results

[The Key Club King]

15 hours ago, rynny said:

How does it level the playing field? Those that have more income can spend more, not exactly levelling the playing field. In fact the EFL have realised this and changed it from Financial Fair Play to Profitability and Sustainability.

We will have cleared this with the EFL before announcing it to make sure we are doing nothing untoward, if the EFL had any problem with what we have done then they would have attempted to put a stop to it, we would have heard about it when the deal happened (which was at least 10 months ago).

It is quite absurd that you suggest we are either cheating or going against the spirit of the law. 

Bigger clubs have always had a financial advantage and its why they are referred to as big clubs. Unless we collectively pool funds like in US sport I cannot see what can be done about that.

Derby's turnover was £30m with wages of £40m and Burton's was £13m with wages of £7m. So despite the natural gap in turnover which gives us 2.5 times more money to spend we end up spending 6 times more on wages. This is largely cos we have overspent on FFP and have used the great stadium deception trick to get around it.

And I do think that effectively selling your own stadium back to yourself and charging peppercorn rent is against the spirit of FFP.  

[curb]

11 minutes ago, The Key Club King said:

And I do think that effectively selling your own stadium back to yourself and charging peppercorn rent is against the spirit of FFP.  

Yes, it would be much better to start next season with a 12 point deduction. 

[Day]

5 minutes ago, The Key Club King said:

Bigger clubs have always had a financial advantage and its why they are referred to as big clubs. Unless we collectively pool funds like in US sport I cannot see what can be done about that.

Derby's turnover was £30m with wages of £40m and Burton's was £13m with wages of £7m. So despite the natural gap in turnover which gives us 2.5 times more money to spend we end up spending 6 times more on wages. This is largely cos we have overspent on FFP and have used the great stadium deception trick to get around it.

And I do think that effectively selling your own stadium back to yourself and charging peppercorn rent is against the spirit of FFP.  

Not sure why the comparison with Burton, surely any comparison should be made with the clubs we are competing with?

[Inglorius]

2 minutes ago, David said:

Not sure why the comparison with Burton, surely any comparison should be made with the clubs we are competing with?

Derby doesn't appear on there. Or is it because our % of player wages to turnover is off the graph. 

[RamNut]

I'm a bit surprised that they didn't say anything about selling the ground at the fans forum, given all the chat about FFP.

I was tempted to ask a question about plans for the stadium but they had plenty of opportunity to disclose that this was how they were going to comply comfortably. A £15m profit instead of a £25m loss doesn't seem to fit with Stephen Pearce's comments about being within £100k of the limit, and the sale of tickets and pies for one game could even make the difference. 

A bit poor tbh.

[The Key Club King]

14 hours ago, SaintRam said:

The only thing FFP is really trying to do is preventing clubs from spending what they don't have so they don't go bust. It does nothing to level the playing field.

I think preventing clubs from spending what they don't have is levelling the playing field to a degree. It is loaning players from foreign clubs that you own (Watford), deals with agents to get superstars on loan for a pittance (Wolves), and selling yourself your own stadium (Derby) that is stretching these limits that I don't agree with.

With regards the parachute payments, it is absolutely the case that those clubs have a big financial advantage from this as it is allowable in FFP. The root of the whole problem and the reason why FFP is there is to attempt to stop clubs from over-spending to reach the promised land of the Premier League. Spreading the PL money out more evenly to lower tiers would slow overspending down. Before 1992, we had a system called The Football League that did this.

I think it is also fortunate that the poor buys and poor atmosphere in the squad that lead to a PL relegation season tend to negate many of the advantages of parachute payments. Which is why, and I've not checked this, that  we still get a variety of different clubs going up and down every season just like before the PL riches came in.

[SaintRam]

9 hours ago, rynny said:

Think you are a little harsh on him there. When he first signed he was playing very well, then under Wassall he had some very good performances (Hull 4-0 stands out) then when Mac came back he was outstanding at DM. He has certainly had more than half a season of good performances, and that is someone who isn't really a fan of him. 

Aye, you're right. I didn't spend much time thinking about his performances while I was writing that and to be frank, while I remember plenty of the good one-off performances (from the team as a whole) from recent seasons, I couldn't tell you which season they were a part of without looking it up. They all merge into the same mess ? 

I would just rather undersell BJ than oversell him while making the point that I was. I'm not as hard on BJ as that post made me seem, I'm quite fond of him in fact, I was just making the point that even if you do think he's just a huge waste of money it's still difficult to pin the blame down on the businessman who sanctioned the deal, as it is with all football transfers (that are by the book).

[SaintRam]

8 hours ago, cannable said:

But signing players shouldn’t have anything to do with hindsight… it was blatantly obvious what we were signing. 

These are extracts from his farewell article on a now defunct Norwich fan site; 

“Even those who never rated Johnson particularly highly – and that’s me included – felt the Norwich world lurch a little. There aren’t many players over the last decade who have divided opinion quite like Johnson at Carrow Road. Earnest, wholehearted Ipswich-slayer or technically-stunted, sloppy, pass-fumbler? Truth is, he was both, and that's why he garnered so much affection. His mistakes made him more human, and last season made him a hero. It was an intoxicating mix – heroes with a dash of human frailty are always the ones you really root for.

The evidence was that in a midfield full of ball-players and deft touches, Johnson was a pug among greyhounds.”

It was abundantly clear he wasn’t going to fit. I wasn’t exaggerating, we literally discovered his availability at 9pm the night before we signed him. Why weren’t the questions asked of Clement; ‘Do you know where he’s going to fit? Have you thought this through? Are you absolutely desperate because we don’t have time to negotiate the deal?’

How do you know those questions weren't asked and Clement very confidently and resoundingly answered, with his "huge" team of "analysts" backing him, to get the transfer through?

[Mucker1884]

1 hour ago, RamNut said:

I'm a bit surprised that they didn't say anything about selling the ground at the fans forum, given all the chat about FFP.

I was tempted to ask a question about plans for the stadium but they had plenty of opportunity to disclose that this was how they were going to comply comfortably. A £15m profit instead of a £25m loss doesn't seem to fit with Stephen Pearce's comments about being within £100k of the limit, and the sale of tickets and pies for one game could even make the difference. 

A bit poor tbh.

Have to agree on that.

Those comments do come across as an outright lie now.  I'd have much preferred something along the lines of "Please be assured we will be ok with regards to FFP/P&S, but unfortunately I cannot give details at this stage, and we'll have to change the subject".  He may even have got boos, tuts and sighs at the time, but at least he could have been smug about it now, and we'd all be giving the thumbs up!

They've not done themselves any favours, when it comes to the next fans forum, as we'll now have to decide what we believe, and what we don't! 

[ramsbottom]

15 hours ago, cannable said:

Fans a lay people though. Mel Morris gave a first-time manager, whose entire coaching experience was either at youth level or at top clubs, a war-chest of £25,000,000 to spend at Championship level. 

Signing Bradley Johnson, because he became available, for a club record fee was absolutely shambolic. 

I think the shambles was at scouting level with the Johnson/Butterfield signings. Yes we needed bodies in to cover the loss of Hughes & Bryson, but I’ve always they could’ve been covered by loan signings from either the Prem or abroad, and would’ve cost us peanuts in comparison. 

Im sure Mel asked, “is that the best we can do?” And Clement and the scouting team replied “Yes”

[Day]

7 minutes ago, Mucker1884 said:

Have to agree on that.

Those comments do come across as an outright lie now.  I'd have much preferred something along the lines of "Please be assured we will be ok with regards to FFP/P&S, but unfortunately I cannot give details at this stage, and we'll have to change the subject".  He may even have got boos, tuts and sighs at the time, but at least he could have been smug about it now, and we'd all be giving the thumbs up!

They've not done themselves any favours, when it comes to the next fans forum, as we'll now have to decide what we believe, and what we don't! 

I don’t think he ever said we are within 100k of the limit, just that you can be and the sale of tickets can swing it one way or another. I’ll try and find a time stamp.

[Ghost of Clough]

23 minutes ago, Mucker1884 said:

Have to agree on that.

Those comments do come across as an outright lie now.  I'd have much preferred something along the lines of "Please be assured we will be ok with regards to FFP/P&S, but unfortunately I cannot give details at this stage, and we'll have to change the subject".  He may even have got boos, tuts and sighs at the time, but at least he could have been smug about it now, and we'd all be giving the thumbs up!

They've not done themselves any favours, when it comes to the next fans forum, as we'll now have to decide what we believe, and what we don't! 

Did he say that in regards to any season past or present? Perhaps "within £100k" will be after our summer splurge from buying Tomori, Mount and Wilson

[Day]

2 hours ago, RamNut said:

I'm a bit surprised that they didn't say anything about selling the ground at the fans forum, given all the chat about FFP.

I was tempted to ask a question about plans for the stadium but they had plenty of opportunity to disclose that this was how they were going to comply comfortably. A £15m profit instead of a £25m loss doesn't seem to fit with Stephen Pearce's comments about being within £100k of the limit, and the sale of tickets and pies for one game could even make the difference. 

A bit poor tbh.

 

31 minutes ago, Mucker1884 said:

Have to agree on that.

Those comments do come across as an outright lie now.  I'd have much preferred something along the lines of "Please be assured we will be ok with regards to FFP/P&S, but unfortunately I cannot give details at this stage, and we'll have to change the subject".  He may even have got boos, tuts and sighs at the time, but at least he could have been smug about it now, and we'd all be giving the thumbs up!

They've not done themselves any favours, when it comes to the next fans forum, as we'll now have to decide what we believe, and what we don't! 

 

22 minutes ago, David said:

I don’t think he ever said we are within 100k of the limit, just that you can be and the sale of tickets can swing it one way or another. I’ll try and find a time stamp.

24 minutes in, question asked about cup vouchers. Mel spoke first, then Stephen Pearce  went on to talk about how tight it can be when you are up against the limit.  

“You can be within 100k of the actual limits which you know can change on the gate of the game or what we sell in terms of the concessions in the concourse”

https://www.dcfc.co.uk/news/2019/03/watch-the-fans-forum-in-full

So it was never claimed that was the figure, and it was also mentioned the club must submit their forecast for this season to the EFL this week. 

Despite posting the profit for 17/18, 18/19 we may be up against the limit still which he could have been referring to in the hypothetical scenario above.

[cannable]

48 minutes ago, ramsbottom said:

I think the shambles was at scouting level with the Johnson/Butterfield signings. Yes we needed bodies in to cover the loss of Hughes & Bryson, but I’ve always they could’ve been covered by loan signings from either the Prem or abroad, and would’ve cost us peanuts in comparison. 

Im sure Mel asked, “is that the best we can do?” And Clement and the scouting team replied “Yes”

I think it’s worth baring in mind that Dawkins got a single half under Clement and he was the player of that half.

And he racked up three MOTM performances in midfield at the end of 14/15. 

Jeff, Dawkins and Hanson, as you say, get a loan midfielder in and we’d have been fine. 

[The Key Club King]

2 hours ago, curb said:

Yes, it would be much better to start next season with a 12 point deduction. 

We are justifying the actions because we don't want to suffer the consequences or consider that we could possibly do any wrong. I think this is known as the "Tony Blair defence" with regards Iraq. If it was another club selling their own stadium to themselves it would be considered pretty dodgy.

People seem to be pretty apathetic with regards questionable financial dealings. Lionel Messi, Ronaldo and Jose Mourinho have all been given actual prison sentances and fined millions for tax evasion and nobody seems to care (and I apprceiate this is nothing to do with tax).

As Whitney Houston once sang - "It's not right but its ok". 

As with most financial shenanigans we have exploited a loophole and it now needs closing. Though I guess we can only do it once?

[The Key Club King]

2 hours ago, David said:

Not sure why the comparison with Burton, surely any comparison should be made with the clubs we are competing with?

I wish somebody would have told Burton that we weren't competing with them. They've got a better record against us than we have against them.

[Day]

3 minutes ago, The Key Club King said:

I wish somebody would have told Burton that we weren't competing with them. They've got a better record against us than we have against them.

And which league are they in now?

You can pick individual results out but ultimately they were always at the bottom end of the table fighting relegation, where as Derby finished in the play offs competing with clubs for promotion.

That’s what the difference in spending money in this league. So if you want to compare us, at least compare is with clubs with similar ambitions and standing in the league, not clubs which are financially great but now a league below.

Pretty sure if Mel chose that path he would be lynched.

[AdamRam]

31 minutes ago, The Key Club King said:

We are justifying the actions because we don't want to suffer the consequences or consider that we could possibly do any wrong. I think this is known as the "Tony Blair defence" with regards Iraq. If it was another club selling their own stadium to themselves it would be considered pretty dodgy.

People seem to be pretty apathetic with regards questionable financial dealings. Lionel Messi, Ronaldo and Jose Mourinho have all been given actual prison sentances and fined millions for tax evasion and nobody seems to care (and I apprceiate this is nothing to do with tax).

As Whitney Houston once sang - "It's not right but its ok". 

As with most financial shenanigans we have exploited a loophole and it now needs closing. Though I guess we can only do it once?

It’s not the loophole that needs fixing, it’s the FFP rules. They are broke, and u TIL they are fixed all clubs will look for loopholes to stay within them.

Im more concerned that we no longer own our ground and the larger FFP implications that come with them, for example rent.

[Spanish]

35 minutes ago, The Key Club King said:

We are justifying the actions because we don't want to suffer the consequences or consider that we could possibly do any wrong. I think this is known as the "Tony Blair defence" with regards Iraq. If it was another club selling their own stadium to themselves it would be considered pretty dodgy.

People seem to be pretty apathetic with regards questionable financial dealings. Lionel Messi, Ronaldo and Jose Mourinho have all been given actual prison sentances and fined millions for tax evasion and nobody seems to care (and I apprceiate this is nothing to do with tax).

As Whitney Houston once sang - "It's not right but its ok". 

As with most financial shenanigans we have exploited a loophole and it now needs closing. Though I guess we can only do it once?

but it's not a loophole.

[ramsbottom]

3 hours ago, David said:

Not sure why the comparison with Burton, surely any comparison should be made with the clubs we are competing with?

Jesus wept!!!  Did Reading sign Ronaldo and not tell anyone???