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The Politics Thread 2019


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4 hours ago, 86 points said:

I'm a socialist and I work in the renewable energy sector so you get zero out 10 for the lame projections and assumptions. More to the point, you must be the only wildlife lover in the UK who thinks that supporting a motion proposed by the Tory government will give rise to an increased environmental awareness and a cap on activities like fracking. Do you really think that the subsidies on renewable energy will be reinstated, the ban on bloodsports properly enforced and the protection of our environment will all of a sudden become a priority for the likes of May, Goves and the idiot that it Boris Johnson post-Brexit? Do you really think they will implement agricultural policies that better protect our wildlife or will they just cover our land in GM crops owned by American food corps. I'm thinking you've not really done your homework but like a lot of your ilk, you love to wax lyrical to strangers about the brave new anarchistic society your lot will usher in if they can ever get out of their mums' basements.

Anyway, good luck with the revolution mate. As a proper hardcore anarchist banging your drum on a footy forum, I'm sure you'll have the entire military industrial complex quaking in its boots. After all, what match are a police force and an army for a tree-hugging, Swampy wannabe? 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-regulations-michael-gove-environment-drugs-a7649041.html
 

 

Firstly may I say I'm sorry if I hit a nerve last night...it was a shizz day lambing....today-yesterday was a good days lambing topped of by your articulate post.

The guardian good neutral paper their, good choice...yep the Tories are weasels but they won't be in power much longer so I won't fret to much about them.

Socialist, good for you that's taken me by surprise as I thought the socialist party was anti EU & wanted a lexit, I didn't know they'd changed direction.

What have you got against the concept of social anarchism? I thought it was the socialists utopia?? 

Just to clarify I suspect the army & police won't be quaking in their boots...even at the g summits they simply beat us down without breaking sweat...I put it down to all that training in France & Catalonia.

Ouch though swampy please no he was a sell out, more akin to say a socialist backing the EU maybe 

Anyway back down into my mothers basement up again soon to deliver more sheep ...renewable energy good for you.

Socialist going against the partyline (bit anarchistic that)...dislikes the Tories, renewable energy...hmm but likes their EU versions??? No first sheep out tomorrow is being sprayed 86pts to show how much I like the cut of your gib.

 

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1 hour ago, sheeponacid said:

For me subsidies have to be linked to how environmentally friendly the land is farmed, the CAP has to go.

Subsiidies would be paid out on a scale based on how well...

Soil quality had been improved

Landscapes maintained.

Wild life habitats had been.. improved, created & maintained....e.g. Introduction of stone walls, hedgerows, wild flower areas to encourage pollinating insects, tree planting, ponds etc.

Improvements in air quality, water quality, & renewable energy usage/production 

Increases in the number of plant, animal insect etc life utilising the farm

Public initiatives to give the general public a better understanding of what is being done & why...open days to farms & more public access to the countryside.

Communty iniatives such as keeping water courses flowing freely/help prevent flooding, road gritting, footpath repairs etc... to further build bonds with the public

 

I'd like to see tighter controls of pesticides, herbicides & livestock....with incentives for keeping some of the rarer domestic breeds of livestock.

A data base showing best practice, the latest environmentally friendly products &  a list of experts in different fields of agriculture & environmental topics...who could advise etc

Action/support & education groups set up to help farmers all get up to speed with farming environmentally friendly as soon as possible

Capital grant pots for investing in major projects

Better mental health support..remoteness, solitude etc can create demons as can the constant life/death cycle of livestock...TB testing day etc

A big one for me is, for the environment to be a major part of the school curriculum on a level with maths...our children need to understand what they have in Mother Earth & how best to look after it...the more they understand & buy into it the more environmentally friendly the next generation will become, with better & better habits...farming & its role in shaping the future would be part of this curriculum

I"d like to see the public prepared to pay a bit more for their products, but in return to know that their getting better protection of their wildlife & their environment etc  for their future generations to enjoy...3 lots of veg for a quid in Aldi, if people are willing to pay more for a better NHS I think that they'd be happy to pay a bit more for their products if it helped safeguard Mother Earth for future generations...the supermarkets could help out here to, possibly not squeeze so hard.

For all the above to be policed properly, as there are so many landscapes ,challenges & farming is a broad church dairy, sheep, crops, hill farm, lowland farm etc so subsidy compliance would have to be tailored, not a one size fits all. 

I admit that some serious investment will be needed...but most environmental groups back this approach as the best way forward.

Which party would best help us deliver it...crikey Gove understands it, buts a weasel who can't be trusted as fracking amongst other things have shown...labour have a bit of a rough ride in the farming industry & haven't ever really endeared themselves...but I'd give them a blast if they said they'd step up to the plate...I think a lot of farmers if I'm honest may go Tory though.

Subsidies can be late, I'd expect no more from this government & DEFRA did want us to rally to the remain flag, hence the constant carping by them...but they're as trustworthy as Gove.

Finally amongst all the above we'd still aim to deliver great products at fair prices.

 

 

0Some great ideas there. Green party could help you out maybe.

Labour should really be driving a green/rural agenda in my opinion. Not sure why Tories do so well in the countryside really. Is it a throw back to the Lord of the Manor days?

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6 hours ago, reveldevil said:

I can't remember a single thing about the situation in Northern Ireland being mentioned in any memorable way during the referendum, yet ever since it's been an insurmountable problem.

Was the NI issue swept under the carpet, or do people in the rest of the UK not really care?

 

This is one of the key points of the whole stupid thing.

Fair play that Leave didn't bring it up, if they had even considered it. They never expected to win and spent their time lying on buses, making posters of a line of 'terrorists' invading our country and breaking campaign spending rules. They were never going to present a balanced list of pros and cons.

What the funk that moron Cameron and his mates were playing at we'll never know. But when you have Tories like the NI secretary who only just realised that people in Northern Ireland vote of sectarian lines, I assume no one even thought about it.

I think a lot of the blame goes to BBC and other mainstream media that should be looking for balance in reporting. Why were't the main Leavers not asked these hard questions about NI? (Plus pushed harder on some of the other bonkers claims).

But it was probably the interent wot won it. An advantage of hidden social media advertising is they can say what they want to us and never be challenged. You don't know how you are been targetted and how the message is been tailored to be relevant and play on your fears.

I imagine all sorts of demographics were given different messaging that their woes were blamed on the EU. It's easy for them to look at your browsing history and Facebook interactions and work out the best messaging. They then use machine learning to adapt messaging to your reaction (ie ckicks/shares). They can also say what you want as there is no accountability or governance.

So say you lived in Lincolnshire...

If you were jobless, you might get a message about how EU immigrants are taking your jobs.

If you had a good job within farming, then the EU are looking to bring in new costs on farming, or some other believable story.

If you were in poor health, the EU is overrun with immigrants (obviously much healthier than the average uk person due to their age bracket).

If you showed empathy to immigrants, make some stuff up about how Eastern European countries suffer when losing their brightest and best to come here and flower pick.

If you are a bit racist, say how next Turkey will be in the EU and Isis can stroll into the UK and we'll become a Muslim country.

 

You might think you aren't taken in by this sort of thing but you will be. Editors with guidelines are not deciding what everyone sees. If you read something in Telegraph/Guardian you should already know their political bias. You know nothing anymore.

 

 

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6 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

You might think you aren't taken in by this sort of thing but you will be. Editors with guidelines are not deciding what everyone sees. If you read something in Telegraph/Guardian you should already know their political bias. You know nothing anymore.

I hesitate to post a Guardian link as some people will treat it like I treat a link to the Daily Mail, but this highlights your point

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/03/grassroots-facebook-brexit-ads-secretly-run-by-staff-of-lynton-crosby-firm

 

Quote

Their collective Facebook expenditure swamps the amount spent in the last six months by all the UK’s major political parties and the UK government combined

So if a vested interest spends money to lobby an MP - it has to be declared, but here we have £millions being spent by the same vested interests creating fake grass roots movements on Facebook. It should at the very least be subject to the same rules of transparency. The rules of the game have changed

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8 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

0Some great ideas there. Green party could help you out maybe.

Labour should really be driving a green/rural agenda in my opinion. Not sure why Tories do so well in the countryside really. Is it a throw back to the Lord of the Manor days?

Without wanting to generalise, people where I’m from read The Sun, Daily Mail, Daily Telegraph and the Daily Express which sets up the status quo of:

May- up until recently, get behind her she’s trying her best. It’s now changed to the government is falling apart 

Corbyn- naughty

EU- terrible

Weather- Gonna be dreadful but that’s got nothing to do with global warming it ain’t

 

Edit: the other problem is no one else really speaks out for the other side. Is there a journalist/political commentator from a rural perspective?

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1 hour ago, StivePesley said:

I hesitate to post a Guardian link as some people will treat it like I treat a link to the Daily Mail, but this highlights your point

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/03/grassroots-facebook-brexit-ads-secretly-run-by-staff-of-lynton-crosby-firm

 

So if a vested interest spends money to lobby an MP - it has to be declared, but here we have £millions being spent by the same vested interests creating fake grass roots movements on Facebook. It should at the very least be subject to the same rules of transparency. The rules of the game have changed

I was sick to death of being bombarded with that (and other) tripe over the last couple of months that I have suspended my Facebook account. It seemed obvious that it was an orchestrated campaign, and my protestations of "You are being manipulated" have resulted in some serious family friction to the point that I will not now discuss the matter in any depth with anybody I know personally, either publicly or privately.

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15 hours ago, BurtonRam7 said:

I'm about 3/4 of the way through. What did you make of it? As I posted in the 'What are you reading?' thread, I think there are some decent points (including the win/win or no/deal mindset) amongst the waffle. There is an awful lot of waffle though. 

Too much waffle, but the key messages are good. Ignore his tendency to force his narrative, I'd say. 

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Yep I'm aware that both of my posts in this thread have been jokes, but so is parliament at the moment ?

As far as I can tell both sides raise good points, neither side is willing to compromise and it all should have been sorted a long time ago. The reason we're becoming the laughing stock of the world is because parliament doesn't actually want us to leave and has just spent the last 2 years working out the least painful way to make it happen so as not to appear like a dictatorship or spark civil unrest,  Unfortunately I don't think they are even going to manage that.  No deal is rapidly becoming the only option.

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11 hours ago, sheeponacid said:

Firstly may I say I'm sorry if I hit a nerve last night...it was a shizz day lambing....today-yesterday was a good days lambing topped of by your articulate post.

The guardian good neutral paper their, good choice...yep the Tories are weasels but they won't be in power much longer so I won't fret to much about them.

Socialist, good for you that's taken me by surprise as I thought the socialist party was anti EU & wanted a lexit, I didn't know they'd changed direction.

What have you got against the concept of social anarchism? I thought it was the socialists utopia?? 

Just to clarify I suspect the army & police won't be quaking in their boots...even at the g summits they simply beat us down without breaking sweat...I put it down to all that training in France & Catalonia.

Ouch though swampy please no he was a sell out, more akin to say a socialist backing the EU maybe 

Anyway back down into my mothers basement up again soon to deliver more sheep ...renewable energy good for you.

Socialist going against the partyline (bit anarchistic that)...dislikes the Tories, renewable energy...hmm but likes their EU versions??? No first sheep out tomorrow is being sprayed 86pts to show how much I like the cut of your gib.

 

This did make me laugh so thank you for brightening my morning. I'm honoured that one of your sheep will be carrying my moniker and a picture of said sheep would certainly grace my mantelpiece.

As for the party line, I'm think not sure that I share your sense that I'm going against much - Corbyn's initial stance perhaps but the party is quite split on Brexit. Anarchistic I'm most certainly not. As for the EU, I don't 'like' them per se, I just see them as the lesser of two evils. Better the devil you know, so to speak.

Also, I don't share your very black and white appraisals of those who voted for and against otherwise I'd be labelling you a bigot and a racist and I'm fairly sure you are neither.

Such a shame that Brexit has us so divided. Our 'green and pleasant land' feels like something rather less these days.

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19 minutes ago, 86 points said:

Such a shame that Brexit has us so divided. Our 'green and pleasant land' feels like something rather less these days.

Some chief Brexiteers in the Tory party pine for a return of those 'dark, satanic mills'.

The good old days, where raped women could pass their child to the workhouse rather than getting an unethical abortion.

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1 minute ago, ariotofmyown said:

Some chief Brexiteers in the Tory party pine for a return of those 'dark, satanic mills'.

The good old days, where raped women could pass their child to the workhouse rather than getting an unethical abortion.

Errr, not quite what I was referring to! Any reason you are putting this rather unpleasant point to me? Pretty damn certain I have never advocated any such practices, nor am I a Tory! 

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4 minutes ago, 86 points said:

Errr, not quite what I was referring to! Any reason you are putting this rather unpleasant point to me? Pretty damn certain I have never advocated any such practices, nor am I a Tory! 

I think he was emphasising your point rather than aiming it at you...

 

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2 hours ago, maxjam said:

The reason we're becoming the laughing stock of the world is because parliament doesn't actually want us to leave and has just spent the last 2 years working out the least painful way to make it happen so as not to appear like a dictatorship or spark civil unrest

I've weighed that up as a possibility and I have had to apply Hanlon's Razor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor).

It's just incompetence.

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19 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I've weighed that up as a possibility and I have had to apply Hanlon's Razor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor).

It's just incompetence.

Oh I'm more than inclined to believe that they are completely and utterly incompetent ?  However, Chris Heaton-Harris MP 'no deal' resignation letter yesterday was an interesting read;

https://www.heatonharris.com/sites/www.heatonharris.com/files/2019-04/Resignation Letter.pdf

No deal was my preferred option 2 years ago, it had the potential to be short term pain long term gain - if we prepared adequately.  It is still my preferred option despite thinking that short term pain long term gain has lengthening to medium term chaos long term gain due to parliamentary inaction/obfuscation.

However, if according to the letter we are adequately prepared for a no deal and optimistic about our future, why keep trying to remove it? 

Maybe cos 70% of parliament doesn't actually want to leave and are plotting to conspire against the public vote. 

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18 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I've weighed that up as a possibility and I have had to apply Hanlon's Razor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor).

It's just incompetence.

Not sure I entirely agree. The mess is they can't agree how to stop it.

In a similar intellectual vein try Occams Razor: The simplest solution is usually the best. i.e. Leave-no deal no negotiation just do it.

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