The Politics Thread 2019

[McRamFan]

20 minutes ago, FindernRam said:

Our expensive MEPs have reported that they can't actually create laws, set policy or do anything useful apart from shuffle from Strasbourg to Brussels and back. Their only function is to "amend" laws created by the unelected EU Commission.

Get us out now!!!

Come back with the full facts.   Start here.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission

Then here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_law

The UK has full veto, so nothing is forced onto the UK.  Just pushing brexit BS, again.

 

[eddie]

So according to Bumbling Boris, the odds of the UK leaving the EU without a deal are "a million to one".

Where can I place a bet? A quid at those odds would set me up for about 5 years in post-Brexit Britain, I suppose. Maybe three.

[McRamFan]

News in from Japan, and a warning for the no dealers.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48783525?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk&link_location=live-reporting-story

[FindernRam]

14 hours ago, McRamFan said:

Come back with the full facts.   Start here.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission

Then here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_law

The UK has full veto, so nothing is forced onto the UK.  Just pushing brexit BS, again.

 

Well, I'd rather trust the verbatim quote of an actual MEP rather than Wiki, particularly an MEP who was a proper MP for many years.

But to humour you I looked at your references.

First line: The European Commission (EC) is an institution of the European Union, responsible for proposing legislation. i.e they set policy

Then :"to be completely independent in carrying out their duties during their mandate". I,e answerable to no-one

Even more: "There is one member per member state, but members are bound by their oath of office to represent the general interest of the EU as a whole rather than their home state". So a British Commissioner does not actually represent British interests but the general EU as decided by ---The Commision 

Still want more: While the Commission has a monopoly on initiating legislation, the European Parliament and the Council of the European Union have powers of amendment and veto during the legislative process.[51] According to the Treaty on European Union articles 9 and 10, the EU observes "the principle of equality of its citizens" and is meant to be founded on "representative democracy". In practice, equality and democracy are still in development because the elected representatives in the Parliament cannot initiate legislation against the Commission's wishes,[

[eddie]

10 minutes ago, FindernRam said:

Well, I'd rather trust the verbatim quote of an actual MEP rather than Wiki, particularly an MEP who was a proper MP for many years.

But to humour you I looked at your references.

First line: The European Commission (EC) is an institution of the European Union, responsible for proposing legislation. i.e they set policy

Then :"to be completely independent in carrying out their duties during their mandate". I,e answerable to no-one

Even more: "There is one member per member state, but members are bound by their oath of office to represent the general interest of the EU as a whole rather than their home state". So a British Commissioner does not actually represent British interests but the general EU as decided by ---The Commision 

Still want more: While the Commission has a monopoly on initiating legislation, the European Parliament and the Council of the European Union have powers of amendment and veto during the legislative process.[51] According to the Treaty on European Union articles 9 and 10, the EU observes "the principle of equality of its citizens" and is meant to be founded on "representative democracy". In practice, equality and democracy are still in development because the elected representatives in the Parliament cannot initiate legislation against the Commission's wishes,[

Well done.

You've just listed the best aspects of belonging to an organisation that operates on mutual trust for the benefit of ALL its members ALL the time.

[Ghost of Clough]

21 hours ago, StivePesley said:

Final nail in the coffin though. Any British manufacturing company that survives a no deal Brexit will be doing so by luck not judgement

Shows you lack of knowledge in the sector if you honestly believe what you posted

[Archied]

17 hours ago, StivePesley said:

Her account has disappeared, did she leave voluntarily?

On the other side of the political spectrum old StringerBell seems to be very quiet too.

 

She transitioned to another forum 

[Stive Pesley]

18 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Shows you lack of knowledge in the sector if you honestly believe what you posted

Oops - I work for a manufacturing company - explain?

[Ghost of Clough]

16 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

Oops - I work for a manufacturing company - explain?

You honestly believe there wouldn't be a single manufacturing company which wouldn't survive a no deal brexit by aything other than luck?

[Stive Pesley]

28 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

You honestly believe there wouldn't be a single manufacturing company which wouldn't survive a no deal brexit by aything other than luck?

In so much as the luck includes then being in a position to cope with a no deal Brexit in a way that allows them to continue making profits to the same or greater margins, yes.

No deal would be so hugely disruptive to supply chains and sales (amongst other things) that all manufacturing companies will have to make significant changes in a short space of time during choppy economic waters. Those that survive will be because their original pre-brexit circumstances are fortunate enough to allow it. No amount of business acumen, planning, judgement, whatever you want to call it - can fix a situation where the profit is no longer there

[eddie]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

You honestly believe there wouldn't be a single manufacturing company which wouldn't survive a no deal brexit by aything other than luck?

I'm sure that the company who make mops will thrive.

They will make a fortune marketing 'Bludgone', the new cleaning system for supermarkets having to keep cleaning up after all the inevitable fights over the last pomegranate or pack of pak choi.

[GboroRam]

2 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

You honestly believe there wouldn't be a single manufacturing company which wouldn't survive a no deal brexit by aything other than luck?

Those companies that survive will do so by taking some extremely harsh decisions. Many people's lives will be ruined.

[FindernRam]

5 hours ago, eddie said:

Well done.

You've just listed the best aspects of belonging to an organisation that operates on mutual trust for the benefit of ALL its members ALL the time.

So unaccountability is the best aspect?

Trust? What trust? The Germans screwed everyone in the Eurozone, then invited the world to come over the border, The French sewed up the CAP to protect their farmers. Pretty much every state has a rising population of EU doubters caused by the distance of the population from the unaccountable Commission.

[FindernRam]

 

5 hours ago, eddie said:

In practice, equality and democracy are still in development because the elected representatives in the Parliament cannot initiate legislation against the Commission's wishes,

Isn't that basically a description of Russian democracy? Parliament exists but the Politbureau calls all the shots. You want that?

[eddie]

5 minutes ago, FindernRam said:

So unaccountability is the best aspect?

Trust? What trust? The Germans screwed everyone in the Eurozone, then invited the world to come over the border, The French sewed up the CAP to protect their farmers. Pretty much every state has a rising population of EU doubters caused by the distance of the population from the unaccountable Commission.

You raise 'unaccountability' as an issue, given the utter fiasco going on at the moment in the Tory party, where the two leadership candidates are just striving to outdo one-another with respect to who can tell the biggest lies and get suckers to believe them, just for the honour of becoming the last Conservative Prime minister of my (an quite probably your) lifetime, voted for by barely 0.25% of the population. One of the 'candidates' is promising to drastically cut taxes for the wealthy at the expense of the poor, and the other one is promising to slash corporation taxes and more than double the amount spent on defence - all to buy the votes of a singularly unrepresentative proportion of the population. It would actually be cheaper for the country to bung all the Tory members a bribe of £350,000 each, so irresponsible are their promises.

The point you make about 'a rising population of EU doubters' is simply incorrect. Whereas one or two countries have seen a rise in the number of EU haters (what we used to call 'Euro-sceptics' but let's not mince words), their numbers have been more than offset by an increase in the number of Green and Liberal Democrats elected to the European parliament in the recent elections. The only country that saw a groundswell of support for the EFDD grouping resulting in an increase in seats was the UK - and even here, there was an increase in the number of Greens and Liberal Democrats elected.

Perhaps the most significant aspect of a 'hard Brexit' will be that no other country within the EU will contemplate such a stupid example of economic suicide for a long time.

[eddie]

10 minutes ago, FindernRam said:

 

Isn't that basically a description of Russian democracy? Parliament exists but the Politbureau calls all the shots. You want that?

I tink it's probably closer to the Conservative Party than anything else.

[Wolfie]

22 minutes ago, eddie said:

You raise 'unaccountability' as an issue, given the utter fiasco going on at the moment in the Tory party, where the two leadership candidates are just striving to outdo one-another with respect to who can tell the biggest lies and get suckers to believe them, just for the honour of becoming the last Conservative Prime minister of my (an quite probably your) lifetime, voted for by barely 0.25% of the population. One of the 'candidates' is promising to drastically cut taxes for the wealthy at the expense of the poor, and the other one is promising to slash corporation taxes and more than double the amount spent on defence - all to buy the votes of a singularly unrepresentative proportion of the population. It would actually be cheaper for the country to bung all the Tory members a bribe of £350,000 each, so irresponsible are their promises.

The point you make about 'a rising population of EU doubters' is simply incorrect. Whereas one or two countries have seen a rise in the number of EU haters (what we used to call 'Euro-sceptics' but let's not mince words), their numbers have been more than offset by an increase in the number of Green and Liberal Democrats elected to the European parliament in the recent elections. The only country that saw a groundswell of support for the EFDD grouping resulting in an increase in seats was the UK - and even here, there was an increase in the number of Greens and Liberal Democrats elected.

Perhaps the most significant aspect of a 'hard Brexit' will be that no other country within the EU will contemplate such a stupid example of economic suicide for a long time.

OK, quick fact check:

Boris is planning to raise tax thresholds for all & from what I can make out, the higher rate tax change will be paid for (at least in part) by increasing NI contributions from those same people who get the tax cut. Still a stupid thing to do, mind.

Hunt is wanting to spend £15bn extra on defence over the next five years - currently £37bn a year would go up to £40bn. Hardly doubling it.

The defence budget would still be a lot less than we pay to service the national debt, by the way - which Corbyn & a few on here seem to be quite happy to be vastly increased.

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, eddie said:

an increase in the number of Green and Liberal Democrats elected to the European parliament in the recent elections. The only country that saw a groundswell of support for the EFDD grouping resulting in an increase in seats was the UK - and even here, there was an increase in the number of Greens and Liberal Democrats elected.

There is a lot wrong with the EU as an institution, but very little wrong with it as a concept.

Remain and reform was always the best way forward. The most democratic way forward in fact. There is enough political will across the EU27 to make that happen, but we clever British souls decided we'd rather leave (even though we had no idea how to leave)

Now all the brexiteers have done is stuffed the EU parliament with a bunch of dummies who won't even turn up. How's that for unaccountable?

And now Farage is claiming that the £450k he was gifted by Arran Banks was a purely private matter and "nothing to do with politics". Seriously? Who just gives someone that sort of money without expecting something for it? I hope both these slimeballs go down for corruption

[Archied]

9 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

There is a lot wrong with the EU as an institution, but very little wrong with it as a concept.

Remain and reform was always the best way forward. The most democratic way forward in fact. There is enough political will across the EU27 to make that happen, but we clever British souls decided we'd rather leave (even though we had no idea how to leave)

Now all the brexiteers have done is stuffed the EU parliament with a bunch of dummies who won't even turn up. How's that for unaccountable?

And now Farage is claiming that the £450k he was gifted by Arran Banks was a purely private matter and "nothing to do with politics". Seriously? Who just gives someone that sort of money without expecting something for it? I hope both these slimeballs go down for corruption

Very simple and wise summarisation,, 

aint it always the way ?

[jono]

On 26/06/2019 at 06:26, GboroRam said:

Nobody saying any industry is "dead" means literally nobody makes anything of that nature in the country. They mean the amount made has fallen dramatically. If we used to make millions, and now we make dozens, I would say that industry has died. If you happen to work making the dozens still manufactured, your tale doesn't help anyone understand the global picture. 

When someone says, I work for a company that makes steam engines and business is up, it tells me nothing about the importance of steam in the modern world. 

It’s an interesting point. For example we “make” more cars than we ever used to. We also export more than we ever did but they are vehicles that are assembled.  In the past every bolt, nut, switch light bulb was locally manufactured, either in house or by local subcontractors. The steel that went in to the bolt was also home sourced as was the copper wire that went in to the loom. The steel tubes and pressings that went in to the seats , same story. 

Now a whole front suspension system with its shock absorbers, springs and all is shipped in from say Belgium to be bolted on to a British “made” Jaguar. The glass is French, The Electronic’s - Bosch or Magneti Marelli, The Brakes - Brembo, The bolts and nuts Korean or Chinese. 

Parts that go in to Bombardier trains come from all over the world and are delivered to Bombardier by “distributors that are in effect the industrial version Amazon.