GboroRam Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 42 minutes ago, cstand said: The most successful countries throughout history are the free market economies who make and control their own rules as and when required. In the fast moving world that we live in today it's more important than ever. Which countries are they and how does "making their own rules" account for that success? Could there be other reasons why they are so successful or is it solely down to sovereignty? Are there any nations that control their own rules but aren't successful? Or does control of their own rules guarantee success? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1of4 Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 25 minutes ago, cstand said: The most successful countries throughout history are the free market economies who make and control their own rules as and when required. In the fast moving world that we live in today it's more important than ever. The wonderful world of free trade. We allow every country in the world to import anything and everything into our country tariff free. Great, cheap goods available in the shop. Shame it causes the closure of factories and the loss of jobs here because of the dumping of goods by other countries. We try to export to another country tariff free. That country won't let us because it would mean they'd have to allow everyone to import into their country tariff free and the dumping of goods that would have an impact on their own industries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 I see that the public spending plans of both potential PMs in the event of a no-deal Brexit make the last Labour manifesto look tight-fisted Yet there appears to be little appetite in the media to dismantle those plans and demand exactly how they will be paid for. Nary a "magic money tree" in sight There is something deeply wrong with the British psyche Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfie Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 9 minutes ago, StivePesley said: I see that the public spending plans of both potential PMs in the event of a no-deal Brexit make the last Labour manifesto look tight-fisted Yet there appears to be little appetite in the media to dismantle those plans and demand exactly how they will be paid for. Nary a "magic money tree" in sight There is something deeply wrong with the British psyche They're promising more than £800bn?. Of course they are. Criticism of them was top story on the BBC website all yesterday & second only to Hong Kong on the news last night. And that's just the beeb - because that's all I looked at yesterday. Bit busy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRamFan Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 13 hours ago, cstand said: The most successful countries throughout history are the free market economies who make and control their own rules as and when required. In the fast moving world that we live in today it's more important than ever. Still waiting on fact. Forever getting unicorn manure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 14 minutes ago, Wolfie said: They're promising more than £800bn?. Of course they are. Criticism of them was top story on the BBC website all yesterday & second only to Hong Kong on the news last night. And that's just the beeb - because that's all I looked at yesterday. Bit busy. The biggest joke of all is that these 'leadership' candidates are both 'warning' Brussels that Britain will walk away with no deal if they refuse to re-negotiate. This is where we are at now - the person threatening to commit suicide is now standing on the edge of the tall building, looking down, telling the policeman that if he comes closer, then he will jump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRainy Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 19 hours ago, 1of4 said: No being highly intelligent, I just about grasp the theories put forward by Buchanan. The question I need answering is are these theories easier to implement in a multi-state system, like the EU or in a single state, like the UK. Or are we screwed ether way? I think we can see the effect of these policies across the US, UK and EU; a deliberate undermining of democratic leverage in favour of corporate oligarchy, along with the targeted destruction of public services like health and education. With the neoliberal consensus since the 1980s, we are already a long way down the road Buchanon envisaged of shifting power and wealth towards the top 1%. This shift is easier to implement in the EU, because it is constitutionally set up that way. The corporate sector has a direct handle on the policy making process of the Commission, and there is no structure equivalent to the UK Parliament to offer democratic scrutiny. For example, the recent allocation of €11.4 billion to spending on defence was a policy initiated by Juncker with his connections in the arms trade. This is effectively the first step in the creation of an EU army, which is not a policy direction in which you or I, as taxpayers and voters, have any say or control. It is notable that the debate about the EU is so heavily focused on trade, as if the assumption that what is good for the corporate and banking sector is inevitably good for the rest of us cannot be questioned; we still believe in trickle down, despite all the evidence to the contrary. My fear is that we are reaching a tipping point in Buchanon's vision of a corporate oligarchy, where we will no longer have the democratic means to halt or reverse the process. The consequences of this are catastrophic, both in terms of the scale of human poverty and powerlessness, and in the continued devastation of the environment caused by unbridled capitalism. I favour leaving the EU, but not because I think we will be better or worse off in terms of trade; in truth, no one knows, and even the short term predictions are anecdotal. The EU is the biggest bloc of concentrated, corporate and banking power which we face; we have already seen the ease with which it overrules the decisions of the voting public. The secession of the UK would be one small victory for the ordinary voter, but I very much doubt that it will be allowed to happen. Our only real hope to save ourselves and the planet is widespread direct action against those who wield economic power over us. The liberal elitists who preach remaining in the EU as some kind of progressive haven against the ravages of capitalism couldn't be wider of the mark. Brexit is a sideshow, in truth, but it is one that ought to be teaching us how precarious our freedom is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 17 minutes ago, McRainy said: The secession of the UK would be one small victory for the ordinary voter A pyrrhic victory though. All the stuff you describe doesn't go away just because we leave the EU. There are still those in power who sense the same opportunities via leaving. If leaving the EU was such a blow to the Buchanan model, then they would have treated Farage and co like they treat Corbyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRainy Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 1 minute ago, StivePesley said: A pyrrhic victory though. All the stuff you describe doesn't go away just because we leave the EU. There are still those in power who sense the same opportunities via leaving. If leaving the EU was such a blow to the Buchanan model, then they would have treated Farage and co like they treat Corbyn Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uptherams Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 On 30/06/2019 at 20:22, GboroRam said: Considering the best we can get is zero tariffs on goods, the best we can get is to have the same prices as now. Yes, if you ignore what many prominent Brexiteers suggest. Which is removing tariffs on all imports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cstand Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 8 hours ago, McRamFan said: Still waiting on fact. Forever getting unicorn manure. Leave won, remain lost is the only fact I can give you. As for predicting the future if I could do that I would be a very wealthy man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 30 minutes ago, Uptherams said: Yes, if you ignore what many prominent Brexiteers suggest. Which is removing tariffs on all imports. Which will decimate our own industries when cheap substandard imports flood the market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uptherams Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 12 minutes ago, GboroRam said: Which will decimate our own industries when cheap substandard imports flood the market. So let's leave the EU and increase tariffs. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 13 minutes ago, Uptherams said: So let's leave the EU and increase tariffs. ? I'm confused. Do you want tariffs or not? My choice would be remain in a bloc which harmonises standards and puts tariffs on those outside of the bloc. That way we put up barriers to substandard goods such as US chlorinated chicken while maintaining a semblance of a level playing field within the EU. I know you'll object strongly about the suggestion that the EU is a level playing field but wait until we're on WTO rules, then you'll get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uptherams Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 10 minutes ago, GboroRam said: I'm confused. Do you want tariffs or not? My choice would be remain in a bloc which harmonises standards and puts tariffs on those outside of the bloc. That way we put up barriers to substandard goods such as US chlorinated chicken while maintaining a semblance of a level playing field within the EU. I know you'll object strongly about the suggestion that the EU is a level playing field but wait until we're on WTO rules, then you'll get it. The rest of the world can wave as it passes the EU by ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 46 minutes ago, Uptherams said: The rest of the world can wave as it passes the EU by ? Riding on rainbow-coloured unicorns, no doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 1 hour ago, GboroRam said: Which will decimate our own industries when cheap substandard imports flood the market. That is precisely what the financiers behind Brexit want. They are asset-strippers who will pick over the rotting corpse of what used to be British industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uptherams Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 7 minutes ago, eddie said: Riding on rainbow-coloured unicorns, no doubt. Such a Debbie downer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cstand Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 23 hours ago, 1of4 said: The wonderful world of free trade. We allow every country in the world to import anything and everything into our country tariff free. Great, cheap goods available in the shop. Shame it causes the closure of factories and the loss of jobs here because of the dumping of goods by other countries. We try to export to another country tariff free. That country won't let us because it would mean they'd have to allow everyone to import into their country tariff free and the dumping of goods that would have an impact on their own industries. The factory that I worked in shutdown in 2007 I got on my bike and got another job. Been on a company visit today been shown a nice shiny new factory that replaced the old outdated one which was we sold off five years ago. As one door shuts another opens, remainers doors are always shut. As for tariffs you negotiate or as with the EU you act like gangsters and demand billions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cstand Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 24 minutes ago, eddie said: Riding on rainbow-coloured unicorns, no doubt. How much does it cost to stable your EUnicorn over night? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.