v Bolton Wanderers (A) Match Thread

[Comrade 86]

6 hours ago, caymanram said:

Frank has really got to learn quickly about these Rotherham and Bolton type of games- there’s going to be lots of them. 

What exactly do you think he has to learn? Given you seem to think you have the solution maybe you should drop him a mail with your your insights. It's a simple equation - do we want percentage football which still doesn't guarantee a win against negative sides, or do we persist with trying to play proper football. We were leggy today with the lads having run themselves into the ground against United and that's all there is to it. Do you seriously think that he's never played against teams that park the bus during his career? No side in the div is rolling over every team they play including Leeds who some on here gifted the title after 3 games. I'll settle for us playing decent footy and losing odd games to those who don't. Way better entertainment than last year after all! Frank's had 10 games, that's all, to completely revamp the side. I think he's doing a great job and I think by the end of the season we're going to be a proper football team. In the interim, patience is key.

[Jourdan]

Irrespective of the United result, I don’t think you have to be one of our resident experts to have seen today’s result coming. It was very predictable this time last week, never mind after midweek’s heroics.

We are a touch reminiscent of the team pre Mac 1, in the way that the style is apparent but we are a small adjustment from coaxing out more consistency from the team.

I can’t be critical of the team selection. For weeks, I’ve been calling for a settled eleven, and while in hindsight rotation may have been sensible, no one would be making an issue out of it if we had won.

It’s hard to escape the thinking that we’ve dropped points in games that we should be winning. But change is never easy, and  we were always going to take a few bumps as Frank gets to grips with the job.

Even though we have lost four games, I don’t think there is any reason to panic. There was always going to be a trade off as we moved towards becoming more attractive and entertaining to watch. 

I think the reality is that it is still so early in the season that we just have to lick our wounds and move on.

You can put a blanket over about 14 teams who might see themselves in with a shout of promotion and I’d still include us in that group.

And while our results have been inconsistent, this division is so tight that it will only take one really good run and everyone will be wondering what the fuss was all about.

[Millenniumram]

3 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

Irrespective of the United result, I don’t think you have to be one of our resident experts to have seen today’s result coming. It was very predictable this time last week, never mind after midweek’s heroics.

We are a touch reminiscent of the team pre Mac 1, in the way that the style is apparent but we are a small adjustment from coaxing out more consistency from the team.

I can’t be critical of the team selection. For weeks, I’ve been calling for a settled eleven, and while in hindsight rotation may have been sensible, no one would be making an issue out of it if we had won.

It’s hard to escape the thinking that we’ve dropped points in games that we should be winning. But change is never easy, and  we were always going to take a few bumps as Frank gets to grips with the job.

Even though we have lost four games, I don’t think there is any reason to panic. There was always going to be a trade off as we moved towards becoming more attractive and entertaining to watch. 

I think the reality is that it is still so early in the season that we just have to lick our wounds and move on.

You can put a blanket over about 14 teams who might see themselves in with a shout of promotion and I’d still include us in that group.

And while our results have been inconsistent, this division is so tight that it will only take one really good run and everyone will be wondering what the fuss was all about.

Think this sums it up quite well, this team is very reminiscent of the late Nigel Clough era. A team playing the right time but just not consistent enough to find any success. Maybe something will change and everything will click into place. It did last year for Fulham...

[Marriot Ram99]

4 minutes ago, Millenniumram said:

Think this sums it up quite well, this team is very reminiscent of the late Nigel Clough era. A team playing the right time but just not consistent enough to find any success. Maybe something will change and everything will click into place. It did last year for Fulham...

It clicked for Fulham not by pure fluke, but by signing the type of target man you need for a 433 in mitrovic who is too good for the championship, I feel we are missing that sort of player and I am disappointed Martin wasn't given a chance.

[Comrade 86]

18 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

I don't see what's wrong with being worried about it.

There are only going to be 5 or 6 teams that will try and outplay us this season, so finding ways of breaking down the rest of the teams is essential. I said in a post this morning that I'm yet to see anything that would suggest we are yet to see anything that would suggest we are even close to finding that formula and I think today proved that.

I've seen a few people putting it down to tiredness after Tuesday but I really don't think it was, it was purely down to a lack of creativity and poor final balls, something that has hampered us for a while. 

I'm not one for looking back but today we could have done with a Vydra type player who could make something out of nothing.

Well perhaps we should model ourselves on the team that breaks down every negative side they play. Just need to work out who that is. To me the whole expectation that we should roll over sides who sit deep is risible. Barca lost to Leganes at this week so I'm not sure why folk expect us to roll over teams like Bolton whose entire game plan revolves around stopping us playing football. Celtic currently sit 4th in their division despite their relatively abundant resources so I guess they must be in crisis, right?  We're 4 points of the top with a pretty new and in some cases, inexperienced side. If you think that's cause for worry then fill your boots. I'll wait another dozen games or so at which point I'd expect us to deal rather better with the Boltons of this world. Franks only had 10 games to put his stamp on the team and we're four points off the leaders who were a premiership side last year. You and plenty others think that's cause for concern, whilst I think that's nonsense. We just turned over Manure in their own back yard so I'll not be wetting the bed just yet.

[Millenniumram]

14 minutes ago, WAGHORNY RAM99 said:

It clicked for Fulham not by pure fluke, but by signing the type of target man you need for a 433 in mitrovic who is too good for the championship, I feel we are missing that sort of player and I am disappointed Martin wasn't given a chance.

Look no further than your own name for that sort of player imo.... A January signing of the ilk of will Hughes would be the transformation

[Comrade 86]

30 minutes ago, WAGHORNY RAM99 said:

we are only 4 points off top due to the teams at the top being equally inconsistent, and no matter what way you spin it we have been dire away from home apart from against hull who may go down.  I don't buy that we were leggy we have played equally poor away from home most of the season and Lampard wouldn't have been stupid enough to pick an unfit team. We are showing signs of promise at home and  I prefer the football to last season but we are nowhere near good enough upfront against deep lying defences .

And what's that tell ya? FFS mate, you wanna stress, fill ya boots. You don't have 'to buy that we were leggy'. I seriously couldn't care less whether you do or don't. Footballers covers anything between 7 and 10 miles a game and our lads ran themselves into the ground against United. It was our intensity and workrate that won us the game. There's gonna be a price to pay for that kind of effort whether you choose to acknowledge it or not. Frank didn't pick an unfit team, he quite rightly stuck with a side who played out of their skins and were therefore entitled to a starting slot today. It beggars belief that you can't understand that as does your expectation that we're going to be great every game. We're a work in progress and you can either get behind Frank and the boys or you can nitpick. Your choice.

[Comrade 86]

37 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

Irrespective of the United result, I don’t think you have to be one of our resident experts to have seen today’s result coming. It was very predictable this time last week, never mind after midweek’s heroics.

We are a touch reminiscent of the team pre Mac 1, in the way that the style is apparent but we are a small adjustment from coaxing out more consistency from the team.

I can’t be critical of the team selection. For weeks, I’ve been calling for a settled eleven, and while in hindsight rotation may have been sensible, no one would be making an issue out of it if we had won.

It’s hard to escape the thinking that we’ve dropped points in games that we should be winning. But change is never easy, and  we were always going to take a few bumps as Frank gets to grips with the job.

Even though we have lost four games, I don’t think there is any reason to panic. There was always going to be a trade off as we moved towards becoming more attractive and entertaining to watch. 

I think the reality is that it is still so early in the season that we just have to lick our wounds and move on.

You can put a blanket over about 14 teams who might see themselves in with a shout of promotion and I’d still include us in that group.

And while our results have been inconsistent, this division is so tight that it will only take one really good run and everyone will be wondering what the fuss was all about.

This is a really sensible post but I do take issue with the rotation thing. As you quite rightly point out, all we're missing is consistency but you can't garner consistency by rotating the squad. The best thing about us right now is we're a unit and to a man, the lads want to play, not just some games but every game. I'll happily take the occasional frustrating loss if we stick with the ethos that those who put up retain their place in the side. It's easy after the event to say Frank should have done this or that, but to be honest, Frank's damned if he does or if he doesn't. Stats don't win you games but there won't be too many matches this year where we have 75% possession and get nothing from the game. If we'd scored first today we'd probably have scored a hatfull. It was just a bad day at the office. A few on here question whether Frank and Jody know their best 11 and yet criticise them for sticking with a side that just beat the biggest team in the country! It does my head in tbh.

[68 Guns]

Not read any previous on here. Just called for sherbert on way home.

To me our problem today was Bolton weren't interested in playing. By that i mean the sit back method.

I believe we get our mojo by pressing the other side and from that comes our pass- pass-pass etc.

If you have a team incapable of possession you can't press them as they've not got the ball.

Thus no impetus. Too slow to make decisions today. But more  importantly it was never passed with crispness or belief. Always passed the ball at snails pace. Doesnt matter if you take too long to pass if when you finallly do its with pace and belief etc...

I teach my U12s to pas it like they mean it. We did'nt.

[Jourdan]

I don’t think our start calls for excitement or hysteria, probably just an acceptance that there are such fine margins in this league and we are going to have to smarten up so we can fall on the right side of those margins far more often than not.

The side is definitely more youthful and positive than before, but with that comes a fragile, soft centre that we need to get over rather quickly. We need to become solid and harder to beat without completely abandoning our latest philosophy. A balance has to be found.

Just how inconsistent have we been? We have won five games from 10, just one fewer than league leaders West Brom. But we have also lost the same amount of games as crisis club Stoke!

Take away those two late goals against Hull and Reading that we barely deserved, how different do things look? 

Similarly, we score goals against Millwall and Blackburn that we probably did deserve, and suddenly we are on 19 points and among the front runners!

So I don’t think there is any real need for doom and gloom, or the opposite.

The hard truth is that we need to keep working hard and showing a willingness to improve - because we can’t continue to lose games like today’s and expect to be in the mix when it comes to the business end of the season.

[G STAR RAM]

7 hours ago, 86 points said:

Well perhaps we should model ourselves on the team that breaks down every negative side they play. Just need to work out who that is. To me the whole expectation that we should roll over sides who sit deep is risible. Barca lost to Leganes at this week so I'm not sure why folk expect us to roll over teams like Bolton whose entire game plan revolves around stopping us playing football. Celtic currently sit 4th in their division despite their relatively abundant resources so I guess they must be in crisis, right?  We're 4 points of the top with a pretty new and in some cases, inexperienced side. If you think that's cause for worry then fill your boots. I'll wait another dozen games or so at which point I'd expect us to deal rather better with the Boltons of this world. Franks only had 10 games to put his stamp on the team and we're four points off the leaders who were a premiership side last year. You and plenty others think that's cause for concern, whilst I think that's nonsense. We just turned over Manure in their own back yard so I'll not be wetting the bed just yet.

Take the hysteria out of the Man United result and analyse what we have done in the league matches this year.

Brentford aside our performances have not been good.

Our really lacklustre performances have been against pretty poor teams when we have been failing to create chances. 

One thing we need to address is conceding early goals against these sides and giving them something to defend. 

In all of these games I've also not seen any change of plan either, our substitutions are always pretty much like for like.

I understand that you don't want any criticism of the team because we have a new manager and we are a team in transition, which is fair enough, but I see no harm in constructive criticism. Surely a part of transition is learning and tweaking as you go along? If it is, then I think part of the transition needs to be learning to play a different way when we come up against defensive teams and actually giving them something to think about. 

One final thing, for us to 'write this off' (and I dont mean that literally) as a season of transition,  you would hope that any progress will be carried forward into next season. As it stands we will have 3 of our better players in Tomori, Wilson and Mount going back to their parent clubs.

[Inglorius]

8 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

There are only going to be 5 or 6 teams that will try and outplay us this season, so finding ways of breaking down the rest of the teams is essential. I said in a post this morning that I'm yet to see anything that would suggest we are yet to see anything that would suggest we are even close to finding that formula and I think today proved that.

I've yet to see anything to suggest you've stopped overusing the I've yet to see anything to suggest  comment.

[Sparkle]

I went yesterday so I have not read what anybody else has put. Bolton well they had no intentions of anything other than offering defensive lines in thier own half and quite frankly we had one shot at goal worthy of the name and the Bolton keeper made one save. Bolton nicked the goal they wanted with an overload at the back post early on and we didn’t have the ability to open them up as we don’t have the big bloke up front or the fast runner with space to run in to.

this type of opposition will be a problem for us especially if we lose a goal early on which we are constantly doing

[G STAR RAM]

5 minutes ago, Sparkle said:

I went yesterday so I have not read what anybody else has put. Bolton well they had no intentions of anything other than offering defensive lines in thier own half and quite frankly we had one shot at goal worthy of the name and the Bolton keeper made one save. Bolton nicked the goal they wanted with an overload at the back post early on and we didn’t have the ability to open them up as we don’t have the big bloke up front or the fast runner with space to run in to.

this type of opposition will be a problem for us especially if we lose a goal early on which we are constantly doing

Such an easy summing up of the 90 minutes really!

[Chester40]

8 hours ago, 86 points said:

And what's that tell ya? FFS mate, you wanna stress, fill ya boots. You don't have 'to buy that we were leggy'. I seriously couldn't care less whether you do or don't. Footballers covers anything between 7 and 10 miles a game and our lads ran themselves into the ground against United. It was our intensity and workrate that won us the game. There's gonna be a price to pay for that kind of effort whether you choose to acknowledge it or not. Frank didn't pick an unfit team, he quite rightly stuck with a side who played out of their skins and were therefore entitled to a starting slot today. It beggars belief that you can't understand that as does your expectation that we're going to be great every game. We're a work in progress and you can either get behind Frank and the boys or you can nitpick. Your choice.

I went with my kids and I can say I saw nothing untoward from our fans at least which was pleasing.

To me it didnt so much look like tiredness....just a lack of ideas. We were guilty of possession for possessions sake..especially passing sideways across the back four.  We never got up a head of steam, so the fans stayed fairly quiet throughout. 

Without a bit of absolute magic we simply weren't going to score...and our corners, free kicks and shooting were all pretty terrible. Mount should have scored, but that was really our only chance and if I was a Bolton fan I would have felt very cheated.

I'm totally behind Frank. I think we will stay top 6 and fully support the changes he has made. But just saying 'chill' I don't agree with...we looked like we could have played for another hour without scoring. We had most of the game to fashion decent chances...but we just didn't and I can see it being a pattern that continues unless we change something... I personally think Nugent isn't the answer and we need to see if Waghorn or Marriott are. 

[G STAR RAM]

2 minutes ago, Chester40 said:

I went with my kids and I can say I saw nothing untoward from our fans at least which was pleasing.

To me it didnt so much look like tiredness....just a lack of ideas. We were guilty of possession for possessions sake..especially passing sideways across the back four.  We never got up a head of steam, so the fans stayed fairly quiet throughout. 

Without a bit of absolute magic we simply weren't going to score...and our corners, free kicks and shooting were all pretty terrible. Mount should have scored, but that was really our only chance and if I was a Bolton fan I would have felt very cheated.

I'm totally behind Frank. I think we will stay top 6 and fully support the changes he has made. But just saying 'chill' I don't agree with...we looked like we could have played for another hour without scoring. We had most of the game to fashion decent chances...but we just didn't and I can see it being a pattern that continues unless we change something... I personally think Nugent isn't the answer and we need to see if Waghorn or Marriott are. 

Agree with most of that other than Bolton could not have felt cheated had we equalised. Other than about 10 minutes, we completely controlled the game.

[Remy the hare]

50 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Take the hysteria out of the Man United result and analyse what we have done in the league matches this year.

Brentford aside our performances have not been good.

Our really lacklustre performances have been against pretty poor teams when we have been failing to create chances. 

One thing we need to address is conceding early goals against these sides and giving them something to defend. 

In all of these games I've also not seen any change of plan either, our substitutions are always pretty much like for like.

I understand that you don't want any criticism of the team because we have a new manager and we are a team in transition, which is fair enough, but I see no harm in constructive criticism. Surely a part of transition is learning and tweaking as you go along? If it is, then I think part of the transition needs to be learning to play a different way when we come up against defensive teams and actually giving them something to think about. 

One final thing, for us to 'write this off' (and I dont mean that literally) as a season of transition,  you would hope that any progress will be carried forward into next season. As it stands we will have 3 of our better players in Tomori, Wilson and Mount going back to their parent clubs.

Good honest post @G STAR RAM

If you look at the Man U first half they had 2 one on ones, one went narrowly wide and the other Carson saved. Man U could have been quite easily 3 up after 20 minutes.

I honestly don’t think we have enough of the right type of players to play Frank’s way currently, other than Brentford we’ve looked average. 

I am by no means saying it’s the wrong style, but the three he’s loaned in are the only regular starters who can somewhat play this style and that’s worrying. The other Summer permanent signings are either on the bench, in the U23 or are injured and probably wouldnt start anyway.

There was a thread started by @WAGHORNY RAM99 before the Hull games talking about taking 20+ points from the next 7 league games, we’ve taken 7 so far, so no wonder he feels like he does!

[G STAR RAM]

FWIW my player ratings, with reasoning, for yesterday. Happy to hear opposing thoughts!

Carson 6 - very little to do, only really remember him making one save. Nothing he could do about their goal. Unimpressed with his theatrics after an innocuous foul, don't like to see players trying to get a fellow professional booked/sent off

Bogle 6 - not at his best yesterday but still a steady performance. Caught out of position for their goal.

Keogh 4 - 2 or 3 mistakes that could have cost us goals yesterday. Very sloppy and back to the Keogh that started the season rather than the one we have seen in recent weeks. Didn't really drive us forward from the back.

Tomori 6 - his performances are always pretty much the same! Confident when the ball is on the ground, using his pace and strength. Struggles in the air. Should have done more to stop the cross coming in for their goal.

Forsyth 4 - sloppy and lazy. His sloppy play seemed to change the momentum in the first half. Second half he had the freedom of the Bolton half but on numerous occasions was telling our players to slow it down or indicating he didn't want the ball. Didn't offer an overlap on numerous occasions. Like Keogh a huge step back to earlier performances, he may have been one player suffering from 3 matches in a week?

Johnson 8 - Motm for me. Controlled the game and drove us forward. Need to get him shooting and rediscover his scoring form from Norwich/Leeds.

Bryson 7 - covered his usual mileage, seemed to be the only player willing to run beyond the Bolton defence. 

Mount 6 - when we talk about Mount being a match winner these are the sort of games he needs to be winning for us. A decent game really with lots of intricate play but always seemed to break down with the final ball. Would have expected him to score his chance but looked a decent save.

Wilson 6 - pretty much the same as Mount. Wasted 2 free kicks in very good positions (come on we are all expecting him to score every free kick now aren't we?!) Another player that we need to shoot a bit more in games like this.

Bennett 5 - good work rate, gets in good positions but lacks quality. Needs to work on his crossing and become more of a goal threat if he is to retain his place in the team. Hope this season doesn't fizzle out for him as previous ones have done. Think he needs to be dropped to the bench but worry what that could do for his confidence.

Nugent 5 - ineffectual. Another that may have found this one game too many?

Subs :

Marriott 5 - a few good touches and looked to get us going forward. No real goal threat 

Lawrence 4 - offered very little. Constantly turned into players. Gifted Bolton possession pretty much every time he got the ball and showed very little effort in winning it back. Understand why Lampard brought him back into the squad but for me he's got to do a lot more to earn himself a starting place

Waghorn 6 - the best of the 3 substitutes. Won us a couple of corners and maybe would have equalised other than a fine last ditch tackle from Wheater. 

Manager

Lampard 6 - showed faith in his team by rewarding the players who had done so much over the last 2 games. Was quick to make changes in the second half but just went like for like when trying something different may have been a better solution. Probably should have given Waghorn longer. Thought Zoon was very unlucky to be dropped from the squad if that was the case.

Referee 

Not sure who it was 7 - didn't have any major decisions to make. Maybe a red card for the challenge on Bennett and a couple of decent penalty shouts?

Fans 6 - maybe there were a lot expecting Derby to do this. Given Tuesday's exploits, I expected the place to be buzzing but other than a 10 minute spell in the second half I thought it was flat.

Highways Agency 1 - wtf was there diversion all about?

[Mr Tibbs]

11 hours ago, DavesaRam said:

The irony being that Keogh had mad two awful cross-field passes across the back which almost let Bolton in, which added to his gaffs on Tuesday night which he got away with, he should be the last person to have a go at anyone about a poor pass.

I don't think there's any irony given that Keogh must be the busiest ball playing centre half in the division. When we stop relying on him to bring it forward or try and split a team in two then I might get annoyed by this but he's taking a lot of our midfields responsibility at the moment. The Oztumer battle he somehow lost is probably cause for concern but I'm not going to knock a centre back for trying to play out when his team mates give him nowt to pass at.

In an ideal world he wouldn't lose the ball but this is the Championship after all, I much prefer him to lose the ball trying to unlock a defence than the drivel he was lofting forward first half at United. More of the same hopefully, just with his mates infront of him helping him out much more.

 

[IronRam 140.6]

11 hours ago, WAGHORNY RAM99 said:

we are only 4 points off top due to the teams at the top being equally inconsistent, and no matter what way you spin it we have been dire away from home apart from against hull who may go down. 

So we are in keeping with everyone else then. Therefore just as likely to have success or failure as every other team.

Who by your own words must be equally as worried about form as us. 

There's the width of a fag paper in it then?