Chester40 Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 For me the problem with CM is that he isnt an impact/squad player. You can't really keep him on the bench and throw him on. Palmer...Vydra...Jerome....yep, bring them on with 20mins to go and see what they can do. Martin needs to start. Get touches on the ball. Help us dictate play. If you're looking to hang on and hit them on the break or smash the door down and grab an equaliser...I would look at the bench and he wouldn't be what I was looking for. So he needs to fit into our style and be in the first 11 for me to want to keep him. If Frank thinks he fits that bill, great. But it would take a leap of faith to place that much faith in someone 2 to 3 years out of form for whatever reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 1 hour ago, Chester40 said: For me the problem with CM is that he isnt an impact/squad player. You can't really keep him on the bench and throw him on. What you mean like Roger did when we needed to keep the ball up field to see out a game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TuffLuff Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 13 hours ago, Bob The Badger said: You make a great point. I remember players who were seen as lazy, but still produced. And players who were work horses and didn't. Fans tend to love the types who work their nads off (see Johnny Russell), often irrespective of actual output, whilst disliking players who produced but didn't run around like lunatics. There is a guy called Ronaldo, who almost never tracks back or closes his opponents down up the pitch, but fortunately for him he's quite good at scoring goals. Similarly, there was a guy called Gary Lineker who skulked around a lot and could look very lazy but was loved by every England fan of a certain era. Even the great Franny Lee got accused of being lazy. CM is a goal scorer and he achieved something for Derby by scoring 20 goals in 3 consecutive seasons that puts him into a very, very, small and elite group of Rams forwards. To just write that off without any further examination would be both crass and lazy imho. To make a somewhat general point I think players like CM don’t get the recognition because their work off the ball is just as important as their work on it which then goes unnoticed. Martin isn’t the only one to struggle with the lazy tag in recent years, I can remember Hulse’s game of grinding down defenders over 90 minutes getting the same treatment but it meant we got the best out of him and Commons, Steve Davies too (whilst injury prone) was in a similar mold. The thing is that these players work for the team, create space for others and pull defenders about. If anything the criticism of Martin is that he’s done that too much over recent seasons and not got into the clinical positions himself. That’s in comparison to a player like Vydra who, as good as he is, rarely makes that space for others and why we have him on 21 goals this season and others struggle to reach those numbers*. That then effects how many goals you get around the team, for all the criticism based at Lawrence’s door you won’t get the best out of him until others are pulling defenders out of position to give him the space to shoot. Its not just strikers that get the treatment, players like Oakley struggled because people couldn’t see how his off the ball positioning meant he didn’t have to be going round “last ditch” tackling and this he controlled the game. ive rambled on here but the point I wanted to make is that the best players in your squad are the ones who are mostly anonymous because they are doing everything they need to do without the ball coming near them. Ie defenders/midfielders who stop the pass before it happens by anticipating what is happening and strikers creating gaps for others to run into. *i am being a little flippant here, Vydra is fantastic technically and I’m sure there are examples of him assisting/bits of movement, but overall it’s that part of his game that left little to be desired (hence why the interest in him so far has been low and uninspiring). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddy Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 Quote Rather than use the art of deflection to hide Martins short comings, why not just let the facts speak for themselves. Remember Martin is a supposed goal scorer - but for the last 5 or so seasons he has consistently scored few goals each season, just maybe there is a reason for this other than the blinded moaning going on in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 12 minutes ago, toddy said: Remember Martin is a supposed goal scorer - but for the last 5 or so seasons he has consistently scored few goals each season, just maybe there is a reason for this other than the blinded moaning going on in this thread. OMG more #toddyfacts! If you can tell me why Vydra didn't perform last season I'll tell you why Martin has been doing the same for some of the last two seasons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Gnarly Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 On 01/06/2018 at 07:29, DRBee said: Lets not miss a fresh opportunity to slag-off one of our players. Even without Ninos, this new thread is likely to become toxic. Whatever happened to him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannable Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 19 minutes ago, toddy said: Rather than use the art of deflection to hide Martins short comings, why not just let the facts speak for themselves. Remember Martin is a supposed goal scorer - but for the last 5 or so seasons he has consistently scored few goals each season, just maybe there is a reason for this other than the blinded moaning going on in this thread. Vydra’s last six seasons have been; good, bad, good, bad, bad, good. Maybe… just maybe strikers need the right conditions to do their work… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TuffLuff Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 19 minutes ago, toddy said: Rather than use the art of deflection to hide Martins short comings, why not just let the facts speak for themselves. Remember Martin is a supposed goal scorer - but for the last 5 or so seasons he has consistently scored few goals each season, just maybe there is a reason for this other than the blinded moaning going on in this thread. Ahhh this old bit. Toddster, you bring this up every once in a while, you then get told why this might be and then you aren’t willing to find a middle ground in which to debate it on, then you bring it back up again a few months later like no one can answer you?Why should anyone bother responding when it’s quite obvious you have no interest in actually having a discussion on it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rynny Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 39 minutes ago, Mr Giggles said: Whatever happened to him? Told us all how Rowett was never going to let the team bottle it, how he was super genius tactical maestro, how we were gonna beat everyone, then disappeared in Feb when we were starting to bottle it with naff tactics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady1993 Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 1 hour ago, toddy said: Rather than use the art of deflection to hide Martins short comings, why not just let the facts speak for themselves. Remember Martin is a supposed goal scorer - but for the last 5 or so seasons he has consistently scored few goals each season, just maybe there is a reason for this other than the blinded moaning going on in this thread. Wait what ? I mean I have heard the argument about his goals drying up before but to say it's the case for the last 5 seasons is blatently ridiculous when that would include 13/14 and 14/15 both of which he scored 20+. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Gnarly Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 13 minutes ago, rynny said: Told us all how Rowett was never going to let the team bottle it, how he was super genius tactical maestro, how we were gonna beat everyone, then disappeared in Feb when we were starting to bottle it with naff tactics. R.I.P Ninos Gone but never forgotten... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadioactiveWaste Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 4 minutes ago, Mr Giggles said: R.I.P Ninos Gone but never forgotten... Can the eulogy be a stream of #toddyfacts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chester40 Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 3 hours ago, RoyMac5 said: What you mean like Roger did when we needed to keep the ball up field to see out a game? So now you are using what Gary did tactically to illustrate your point ...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbobram Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 On 01/06/2018 at 01:26, SilentRam said: Will be very very difficult to loan him out (selling him would be impossible). He is on great wages and he doesn't seem to mind not playing. His last loan would not have helped his value at all. Our only hope is that Steve Mac comes in for him. The whole Martin conversation is extremely boring now. He is slow, falls over easily and I hate hearing this, 'The team does not play or is not structured for him to play his best.' He is a striker, not sure why 9 other outfield players have to be set in a certain formation to bring the best out of one striker. Rowetts set up only suited Vydra though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 1 minute ago, jimbobram said: Rowetts set up only suited Vydra though Maybe Lampard won’t play Martin either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 1 hour ago, toddy said: Rather than use the art of deflection to hide Martins short comings, why not just let the facts speak for themselves. Remember Martin is a supposed goal scorer - but for the last 5 or so seasons he has consistently scored few goals each season, just maybe there is a reason for this other than the blinded moaning going on in this thread. Oh god,how boring toddy...the same comment over and over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irobinson Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 8 minutes ago, jimbobram said: Rowetts set up only suited Vydra though And he ended up on the bench for last three games!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddy Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 2 hours ago, RoyMac5 said: OMG more #toddyfacts! If you can tell me why Vydra didn't perform last season I'll tell you why Martin has been doing the same for some of the last two seasons? Erm, Top scorer in the championship, FFS, what more do you want Vydra to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 3 minutes ago, toddy said: Erm, Top scorer in the championship, FFS, what more do you want Vydra to do? What about the ones before when he didnt?....should vydra have been permanently written off because the systems didn't suit his style? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddy Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 1 hour ago, brady1993 said: Wait what ? I mean I have heard the argument about his goals drying up before but to say it's the case for the last 5 seasons is blatently ridiculous when that would include 13/14 and 14/15 both of which he scored 20+. Please reread what i actually said. Then go and look at his goal tally from each season starting from say 2013/14 season up o present.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.