Time for youth

[TheHomunculusLives]

Harsh on Guy - according to fans of Port Vale and Bradford, he's done an excellent job in League One, and he's certainly played regularly for both. Can't argue with your assessment of most of the others though, although some players just don't end up 'fitting' at their loan clubs: who would have thought Jesse Lingard would end up going to the World Cup when he was with us??

[Ghost of Clough]

1 hour ago, Papahet said:

Other than maybe Luke Thomas and Elsnik, the rest aren't anywhere near the standard to be playing Championship football regularly.

Can't believe how many times I've seen Max Lowe mentioned on here, he's struggling for games at Shrewsbury Town! Zanzala is another, he looked alright two years ago when we got promotion but hasn't pushed on since, now struggling for games at Accrington ?

Guy, Macdonald, Roos, Bennett, Hanson, Gordon, Jakobsen, Vernam have barely made big impressions at lower league leve when given the chancel, I struggle to see how they'd make an impact in the Championship. The academy is so overrated it's unreal, the best player we have is a signing from Cheltenham Town.

Let’s review the players you listed...

 

Guy - rave reviews at Vale and Bradford. Squad player / lower champ next season

Macdonald - played really well for Barrow this season. I imagine he’ll go to a league 2 side maybe even lower league 1 next season. 

Roos - likely to be released this summer. 

Bennett - looked like our best winger before getting injured early in the season. Another good pre-season and he’ll be a part of the first team squad. 

Hanson - versatile, solid and dependable when played (not just this season). Will be in the first team next season, likely to be more of a utility player liking in at RB and CM. 

Gordon - played fairly well at Swindon scoring 4 and pretty sure he had a couple of assists too. One of the youths I see being sold this summer. 

Jakobsen - wants more first team football. Will either be loaned out again or sold. 

Vernam - One of best players for Grimsby before getting injured. I think he’s good enough to be a squad player next season but most likely will go on loan to a league 1 side. 

[Papahet]

So what's the actual purpose of the academy? spending so much time, effort and money on it, only for them to be released to a lower league club?

Any club can produce the odd gem once in awhile, without the fancy training facilities and cat one status.

We'd be fighting relegation if we thrown in half of the players mentioned from the under 23's, why? They only just narrowly avoided relegation themselves at under 23 level!

[Abu Dhabi Ram]

32 minutes ago, Papahet said:

So what's the actual purpose of the academy? spending so much time, effort and money on it, only for them to be released to a lower league club?

Any club can produce the odd gem once in awhile, without the fancy training facilities and cat one status.

We'd be fighting relegation if we thrown in half of the players mentioned from the under 23's, why? They only just narrowly avoided relegation themselves at under 23 level!

But don't the U23 team play in their respective top league?

[Philmycock]

Make or break for Bennett next season surely, hopefully he’ll have a corking season with us!

[Papahet]

6 minutes ago, Abu Dhabi Ram said:

But don't the U23 team play in their respective top league?

But what does that benefit? Man United finished bottom and have one of the best set ups in the land, with the ability to attract players far and wide.

The under 23's for me in no more than a training exercise

 

[Yani P]

I remember when Lingard was here I thought he looked rubbish lol

[Ambitious]

I'm not dead set on forcing the issue and playing our youth players, but we should definitely be looking to invest in young players. 

In some cases they don't even need to be very good to attract large sums of money, i.e. Joe Worrall & Ben Brereton. 

[EnigmaRam]

1 hour ago, Papahet said:

So what's the actual purpose of the academy? spending so much time, effort and money on it, only for them to be released to a lower league club?

Any club can produce the odd gem once in awhile, without the fancy training facilities and cat one status.

We'd be fighting relegation if we thrown in half of the players mentioned from the under 23's, why? They only just narrowly avoided relegation themselves at under 23 level!

Exactly, if you don't play them what's the point, but according to YOU none are good enough.

most of our better under 23's were out on loan not playing for our under 23's that DID retain PL2 status

[europia]

8 hours ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

I will make peace with the fact we sell the likes of Vydra, providing we don't use the money to sign ageing players dropping from the prem. 

It is time we put trust in some of our youth players to see if they are good enough.

Expectation for the upcoming season will be the lowest for a good few years, so maybe this is the best time for Rowett to be brave and give youth a chance.

Max Lowe, Luke Thomas, Callum Guy, Elsnik, Zanzala, Vernam, Max Bird, Babos...surely out of these players at least 2 are ready to make the step up.

Rather than seeing two over 30s in midfield, lets see a youngster alongside experience.

This season we may find a new Will Hughes, or even Sessegnon.

 

Thing with all this talk about letting the youth have a chance, it's not something that you make a decision to do (unless out of necessity), but rather something that happens naturally, with the young players forcing their way into the 1st team based on their ability. I do agree however,  that some managers are more receptive to it than others. 

[rynny]

1 hour ago, Papahet said:

So what's the actual purpose of the academy? spending so much time, effort and money on it, only for them to be released to a lower league club?

Any club can produce the odd gem once in awhile, without the fancy training facilities and cat one status.

We'd be fighting relegation if we thrown in half of the players mentioned from the under 23's, why? They only just narrowly avoided relegation themselves at under 23 level!

The under 23 team had mainly under 18 players playing this season and managed to stay up, whilst most of the better players were out on loan. 

[jimbobram]

As a fan of the club you want to see these youngens come through. Thomas only played 5 mins but every time he got the ball the crowd were willing him on. I feel we need that to bring some genuine positivity  to PP. 

[BramcoteRam84]

It is the time for youth. Don’t get those who think Rowett is against youth based on him signing older players this season. We desperately needed physicality down the spine of the team, with budget constraints he had to sign old players.

Rowett has a track record at both Burton and Brum for bringing through youth. He gave Maghoma a shot, he also gave  Demarai Gray his chance at Brum, and Davis. 

Of our youth, the majority weren’t ready last season. Thomas emerged through the season and Lowe who probably was ready was injured when Rowett arrived. 

Next season I think we will see a more youthful team.

 

[Papahet]

17 minutes ago, EnigmaRam said:

Exactly, if you don't play them what's the point, but according to YOU none are good enough.

most of our better under 23's were out on loan not playing for our under 23's that DID retain PL2 status

And according to moi, these "better" under 23's out on loan have barely impressed, other than Elsnik. Even he was left out the side once Flitcroft left.

Lowe is vastly overrated, he's been around the first team since the Clough days and have yet to see what the hype around. Bennett? Another player who looks half decent outside the first team, but once he's got the chance of first team football out on loan, he either fails to impress or gets a injury. I don't get the hype around those two whatsoever.

Luke Thomas? Gets overlooked for Anya. The same Ikechi Anya who wasn't seen for months prior to the Russell sale. Rumored to be off for a million, a friggin million.

Why should I be overly arsed about the U23 league status? What does that actually mean? Man United finished rock bottom of the league, does that mean there academy and youngsters are crap then?

 

[Papahet]

45 minutes ago, rynny said:

The under 23 team had mainly under 18 players playing this season and managed to stay up, whilst most of the better players were out on loan. 

The table at under 23 level is irrelevant though. How many sides are using these games to gain match fitness and what not? It doesn't show a clear indication of the actual quality within the squads. Take Man United, they finished rock bottom of the league. Does this mean there academy is worst than ours then? Whilst Man City have one of the best set ups in the world, only finished a handful of points above us.

Take Forest, they are however many leagues below our under 23's and most likely spend less time and money on the academy compared to us. Yet year after year always seem to produce a good two or three players in the first team. Darlow, Lascelles, Worrall, Brereton, Osborn and Burke are players at the top of my head that have come into the first team and nailed down a place or sold for hefty fee's (even under Fawaz).

We really overhyped the heck out of youngsters. We've done it since I can remember. Lee Holmes always springs to mind. Callum Ball was a machine at u23 level, where's he nowadays? Paris Simmons, most recently Shaquille Mcdonald, Calero...

 

[therams69]

4 hours ago, Papahet said:

Other than maybe Luke Thomas and Elsnik, the rest aren't anywhere near the standard to be playing Championship football regularly.

Can't believe how many times I've seen Max Lowe mentioned on here, he's struggling for games at Shrewsbury Town! Zanzala is another, he looked alright two years ago when we got promotion but hasn't pushed on since, now struggling for games at Accrington ?

Guy, Macdonald, Roos, Bennett, Hanson, Gordon, Jakobsen, Vernam have barely made big impressions at lower league leve when given the chancel, I struggle to see how they'd make an impact in the Championship. The academy is so overrated it's unreal, the best player we have is a signing from Cheltenham Town.

In fairness how many young premier league players rip it up in leagues 1 or 2. They are tough physical leagues full of proper strong units and not tamed for playmakers.

You say the academy is over rated but correct me if I am wrong we finished 10th in the top league with Man United finishing bottom.

The problem is these players are not getting a chance at the first team because we buy established players due to the money invested and rich rewards of promotion. If we had GSE back and Clough with no money i tell you now we would have had them playing.

Its really a bit like why the top premiership clubs dont play their youngsters either. With the money they have and instant success needed /required they just go and buy. Not being funny but Mr Abu Dhabi from Manchester City or the yanks at United are not interested in seeing the local lads from Salford play 100 first team games. They want the champions league money. The only reason these other academies are so good with some really good players is that they buy them so their rivals dont have them.

 

[rynny]

25 minutes ago, Papahet said:

The table at under 23 level is irrelevant though. How many sides are using these games to gain match fitness and what not? It doesn't show a clear indication of the actual quality within the squads. Take Man United, they finished rock bottom of the league. Does this mean there academy is worst than ours then? Whilst Man City have one of the best set ups in the world, only finished a handful of points above us.

Take Forest, they are however many leagues below our under 23's and most likely spend less time and money on the academy compared to us. Yet year after year always seem to produce a good two or three players in the first team. Darlow, Lascelles, Worrall, Brereton, Osborn and Burke are players at the top of my head that have come into the first team and nailed down a place or sold for hefty fee's (even under Fawaz).

We really overhyped the heck out of youngsters. We've done it since I can remember. Lee Holmes always springs to mind. Callum Ball was a machine at u23 level, where's he nowadays? Paris Simmons, most recently Shaquille Mcdonald, Calero...

 

How is the table irrelevant? The league the under 23s is in is the best in the country, and has the best teams in it, most are evenly matched. 

Forest have played these players out of necessity, they haven't been able to spend the money so have had to turn to their youth team, same as when we had to put Hendrick, Hughes, O'brien, Ball into the team. Some will make it some won't. Same with the players you have listed for forest. 

Ivan Calero is playing the top flight of the Dutch league, can't be that bad. Again some make it some don't. What about the players that have made it that you haven't mentioned? Huddlestone, Grant, Camp, Nathan Doyle, Hughes, Hendrick, Riggott, Steve Elliott, Ian Evatt, Tudgay, Hanson, Bennett, Jordan Mutch, Addison, Jake Kean. 

The only thing that can be said about youth players is that you do not know who can make the step up until you give them a chance. There have been plenty of players that have looked brilliant at youth team level and not made the step up and plenty that have looked like they don't belong on a pitch and gone on to have a good career for themselves. 

[Papahet]

How many of those you've mentioned where released by DCFC though? Mutch and Kean didn't kick a first team football here. We didn't see them good enough, so why should the club take credit for there careers later on?

In twenty odd years, we've produced like half a dozen decent players from the academy that have made an impact in the first team: Huddlestone, Grant, Camp, Hendrick, Hughes, Hanson. Hardly impressive, considering how much time, money and effort gets put into it.

Now all of a sudden it's the assumption that they'll be several players vying for the first team next season, when it's taken us 2 decades to bring through 6 players of any real note.

If they are good enough they'll be in that first team already, regardless of the buying of these big named established players. Sessengon at Fulham the prime example. I've seen reports of 100m for the kid, surely proof you don't need no fancy training grounds to produce top talent - it's a natural gift.

You are just aswel buying 20 year old's from league one and two and improving them, a'la Brentford w/ Ollie Watkins from Exeter. Funnily enough our better player was signed from Cheltenham and not brought through our so called amazing academy

 

 

 

 

[dcfcfan1]

If we give youth a chance and we finish say, 12th next season, I guarantee fans will be calling for his head, lets be honest about this

[clarkeram7]

6 hours ago, Papahet said:

Other than maybe Luke Thomas and Elsnik, the rest aren't anywhere near the standard to be playing Championship football regularly.

Can't believe how many times I've seen Max Lowe mentioned on here, he's struggling for games at Shrewsbury Town! Zanzala is another, he looked alright two years ago when we got promotion but hasn't pushed on since, now struggling for games at Accrington ?

Guy, Macdonald, Roos, Bennett, Hanson, Gordon, Jakobsen, Vernam have barely made big impressions at lower league leve when given the chancel, I struggle to see how they'd make an impact in the Championship. The academy is so overrated it's unreal, the best player we have is a signing from Cheltenham Town.

Guy is a fans favourite at both Vale and Bradford. In Lowe and Zanzala's defence they joined promotion sides that were pretty settled so the experience was still a good one. Gordon played all season at Swindon, didn't pull up any tree but managed a few goals and it wasn't all that long ago Harry Kane played for Leyton Orient and didn't walk into their side. Bennett is clearly good enough just never fit, something needs to be done with his fitness. Vernam is another who needs to stay fit because he started off on fire at Grimsby then got injured. The potential is certainly there if you look more closely ??