Time for youth

[NorwichLad]

7 minutes ago, Papahet said:

So the only players who'd be much cop are the ones who have performed in league one?

I know its the colour of the team that you support but you seem to see everything in black and white.

Allow me to introduce you to grey.... 20 year old Jamal Lewis has become our 1st choice left back, won Northern Ireland caps... and has never been out on loan.

But if a player doesn't perform in League One on loan then they are unlikely to be ready for the Championship, if you need people to state the obvious. 

[NorwichLad]

3 minutes ago, curtains said:

Whilst the Academy 1 status is Important as regards attracting the better players it’s not the be all and end all. 

The players still have to be coached by a good coach to reach the required standards for the first team. 

Well either you have some good players in your Under 18 side.

Or you have a good Under 18's manager who has made them punch above their weight.

Pick one, choice is yours. 

[Curtains]

6 minutes ago, NorwichLad said:

Well either you have some good players in your Under 18 side.

Or you have a good Under 18's manager who has made them punch above their weight.

Pick one, choice is yours. 

We will see .

As you have said yourself unless you play against tough opponents who kick you now and again you don’t know how they will do .

Hoping  for the best as there is no denying they have done well this season. 

[Papahet]

We brought Luke Thomas to the club as a 17 year old, we had scouts over in Slovenia for Elsnik and he came over aged 18. All this tells me is they were already good players before coming to DCFC, we can hardly take full responsibility in the development of those two. It wasn't totally down to us which helped get these where they are today.

Jamie Hanson is another who is vastly overrated at the club, seems he is only around the place to show we can bring through players - although not very good ones. He must be coming up to 23, again nothing special just a versatile "backup" player.

Mason Bennett and Max Lowe have been around the first team since 07 and have not pushed on since. Kelle Roos another, Callum Guy must be 21 or 22 now and should be playing Championship football if he's good enough.

I'd rather just take a step back with the academy and focus on getting the top talents from the lower leagues. Look how well Ollie Watkins is doing at Brentford. Ryan Woods, Daniel Bentley, Nico Yenaries. They always seem to have the knack of finding these young players and improving each year in the league - despite selling Hogan, Jota, Dean, Mccormack, and Judge being injured for the best part of 18 months. That is the model i'd follow in our position with FFP.

 

 

[SaintRam]

I just wanna shed some light on the youths;

Luke Thomas is not our best youth. The wings were just a position the seniors lacked depth in and we kept getting knocks in, which is why he wasn't sent out on loan.

Callum Guy and Elsnik are both ahead of him. Bogle's at a similar level, based on their performances at U23 level. Bennett is inconsistent, but the best of the lot when he turns up.

Yes, Zanzala, Lowe, Vernam have not had particularly successful loan spells at lower league clubs, but as I've said before that means literally **** all. Always will. Players now playing in the Champions League have sat on benches on loan in the lower leagues only to start playing senior football at their owner club the next season.

It's perfectly possible that all 7 I've mentioned could step up to the Championship and hold down a first team spot, it's also perfectly possible that none of them ever have the quality to get off the bench.

Youth's cannot be judged based on stats in youth football, loan spells, or brief cameos off the bench - all the coaches, who are literally paid to make that judgement, at every club, get that judgement wrong time and time again. When they get played, they either step up or they don't. 

But you have to play them to find out.

[Ghost of Clough]

57 minutes ago, Papahet said:

So the only players who'd be much cop are the ones who have performed in league one?

That kinda show's my point then; there's like Elsnik who has impressed in league 2, not a single other player has looked anything special this season. Bennett found his level in league 2 with Notts, Gordan look's pretty average ditto Callum Guy. So that's one player, one player we've sent out on loan to a league 2 side who could potentially be a first team player for Derby.

Lowe couldn't get a game at Shrewsbury and yet there's several posters mentioning him for next season here ? Zanzala had a poor spell at Accrington and Charles Vernam? He's been on loaned out to a side in Iceland, Coventry and most recently Grimsby, nothing to suggest he'll make it here when he's 22 this year.

So basically the only two players who look likely to make the step up into the first team is one signed from Cheltenham and another was brought from Slovenia when he was 18. Pretty poor return isn't it?  Then you see Fulham bringing through Sessengoun at 17 without spending a great deal of time, nor money on the academy. His potential sale will help them for years to come. What has Hughes and Hendrick going done for us long term?

The highlighted section illustrates your lack of knowledge perfectly. Let’s yse one example, Guy. You say Gordon was “pretty average in league 2, ditto Guy”. This is Callum Guy, who spent half a season in league 1, was a regular starter, and received rave reviews (not for the first time during a loan spell). 

Whilst I’m at it... let’s look at Bennett who you claim has “found his level in league 2”. He was our standout winger in pre-season, people were surprised he didn’t start the season against Sunderland as first choice, but when given his chance scored vs Barnsley and created the goal to score vs Birmingham. Unfortunately he got injured early in the next game. He may need a season elsewhere to prove his fitness, but he’s more than capable at his level. 

Lowe and Hanson have preven they are decent squad players at this level. Thomas and Bogle have been heavily involved with the first team during the second half of the season. They’ll either be out on loan next season or be used as squad players. Elsnik will be playing in the championship next season. Again, that’ll either be on loan or as a squad player for us. 

[angieram]

1 hour ago, curtains said:

No not my own agenda .

Just the common sense agenda and not the knee jerk reactions we get in here  

Style of football crap etc etc 

Admit it you wanted academy players thrown in at the deep end regardless 

PS I know just as much about Academy players as you do and please stop having a go at Rowett saying he’s ultra safe  

 

Curtains, you just mis-read and misinterpret things.

Yes, I would have introduced Thomas into games more often when we were struggling. The others I rate were out on loan and weren't available. I very much hope we see a few of them given a real try next season and not just wheeled out for the occasional cup game. By that I don't mean play all under 23s - there are shades inbetween.

And give me one reason for not stating that Gary Rowett plays it safe - I can't think of a single team selection in the league this season where he picked a more risky formation to go out and win a game rather than not lose it. Can you? If you think that stating that is 'having a go' then you have a very strange view of what other people can say and not say on a message board. It seems to me that you don't want anyone to disagree with you.

I'm by far from being the worst of Rowett's critics but your blanket stance of 'he can do no wrong' just gets on my nerves.

 

[Curtains]

2 minutes ago, angieram said:

Curtains, you just mis-read and misinterpret things.

Yes, I would have introduced Thomas into games more often when we were struggling. The others I rate were out on loan and weren't available. I very much hope we see a few of them given a real try next season and not just wheeled out for the occasional cup game. By that I don't mean play all under 23s - there are shades inbetween.

And give me one reason for not stating that Gary Rowett plays it safe - I can't think of a single team selection in the league this season where he picked a more risky formation to go out and win a game rather than not lose it. Can you? If you think that stating that is 'having a go' then you have a very strange view of what other people can say and not say on a message board. It seems to me that you don't want anyone to disagree with you.

I'm by far from being the worst of Rowett's critics but your blanket stance of 'he can do no wrong' just gets on my nerves.

 

Signing Kasey Palmer 

[clarkeram7]

Wasn't that long ago Harry Kane had a very underwhelming spell at Leyton Orient.. I'll reserve all judgement until I've seen them play a few games. In their defence the lads who have become 'stale' like Guy, Vernam Hansen and Lowe haven't had many opportunities in the last few years with us chasing promotion and a bloated squad of over paid/transfer disasters. 

[Papahet]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

The highlighted section illustrates your lack of knowledge perfectly. Let’s yse one example, Guy. You say Gordon was “pretty average in league 2, ditto Guy”. This is Callum Guy, who spent half a season in league 1, was a regular starter, and received rave reviews (not for the first time during a loan spell). 

Whilst I’m at it... let’s look at Bennett who you claim has “found his level in league 2”. He was our standout winger in pre-season, people were surprised he didn’t start the season against Sunderland as first choice, but when given his chance scored vs Barnsley and created the goal to score vs Birmingham. Unfortunately he got injured early in the next game. He may need a season elsewhere to prove his fitness, but he’s more than capable at his level. 

Lowe and Hanson have preven they are decent squad players at this level. Thomas and Bogle have been heavily involved with the first team during the second half of the season. They’ll either be out on loan next season or be used as squad players. Elsnik will be playing in the championship next season. Again, that’ll either be on loan or as a squad player for us. 

My God, are you are really going on a players quality because of a game or two in pre season against Kidderminster Harriers and Maccelsfield Town LOL. What about the loan spells at Chesterfield, Burton and Bradford? It's only on loan at Notts County in L2 he gets rated at first team level.

Callum Guy is like 22 this year and looks nowhere near ready to become a Championship player. Farred Rawson made half a dozen appearances for Rotherham and impressed, what's he doing nowadays huh? Oh yes, playing infront of 3k in league two.

Too many squad players and not enough quality within the squad. Hanson, Lowe, Bennett, Vernam, Roos, Guy, Zanzala. Get them all gone and bring in some proper youngsters to push the pensioners in the 1st team.

[G-Ram]

2 hours ago, NorwichLad said:

I know its the colour of the team that you support but you seem to see everything in black and white.

Allow me to introduce you to grey.... 20 year old Jamal Lewis has become our 1st choice left back, won Northern Ireland caps... and has never been out on loan.

But if a player doesn't perform in League One on loan then they are unlikely to be ready for the Championship, if you need people to state the obvious. 

Not necessarily Harry Kane was pants on loan for you lot, millwall & Fester. Jesse Lingard was rubbish on loan for Derby both doing alright at their parent clubs 

Its about getting experiance, player development & the players attitude to try to apply themselves. 

Not every player that goes out on loan & fails to perform on their loan isn't going to make it. Its Like the ex-prem players that go down the leagues & their new team mates are not on the same wave length & they look poor 

 

[Animal is a Ram]

3 minutes ago, G-Ram said:

Not necessarily Harry Kane was pants on loan for you lot, millwall & Fester. Jesse Lingard was rubbish on loan for Derby both doing alright at their parent clubs 

Its about getting experiance, player development & the players attitude to try to apply themselves. 

Not every player that goes out on loan & fails to perform on their loan isn't going to make it. Its Like the ex-prem players that go down the leagues & their new team mates are not on the same wave length & they look poor 

 

Vice versa - Jordon Ibe.

Looked poor at the start, then rapidly improved, has since not done very well for Liverpool and Bournemouth. 

[RadioactiveWaste]

It's also worth remembering, even if in each team at different levels, you have two or three special talents, they still need team mates to play with.

And how do you measure the good that playing for the academy does the players who don't make it for us?

The game's moved on from join your local amateur team and work up for the most part.

And even then, we did produce Hughes and Hendrick.

[Ramarena]

3 hours ago, Animal is a Ram said:

Vice versa - Jordon Ibe.

Looked poor at the start, then rapidly improved, has since not done very well for Liverpool and Bournemouth. 

True although it may be that Ibe isn't up to prem football at this stage in his career.

some players go through stages and have to drop down to build his way back up again.

[NorwichLad]

13 hours ago, Papahet said:

I'd rather just take a step back with the academy and focus on getting the top talents from the lower leagues. Look how well Ollie Watkins is doing at Brentford. Ryan Woods, Daniel Bentley, Nico Yenaries. They always seem to have the knack of finding these young players and improving each year in the league - despite selling Hogan, Jota, Dean, Mccormack, and Judge being injured for the best part of 18 months. That is the model i'd follow in our position with FFP.

 

But again....

1). Where has this really got them? I know they are a smaller club so the pressure to sell on again is greater, and they punch above their weight, but they are only 9 points above Ipswich who sign 30 year old rejects on free transfers. 

2). I suspect they pay more money for those players than you might think. Sergi Canos for example joined us from Liverpooll for £2.5m and then was swiftly sold on to Brentford for £2.5m. They signed Nico Yennaris from Arsenal.... probably a seven figure fee again. We paid £1.5m for Ignasi Miquel from Arsenal so probably a similar fee.. Don't know if you need much of a "knack" for finding players in the reserves of the top sides..

3). Is Ryan Woods really all that special? Signed for £1m.... could probably be described as 'good value' but probably no better than Knudsen at Ipswich who they probably paid a few hundred grand for. He only has a year left on his deal so if you need a left back perhaps try and snag him. 

4). Its really easy to isolate the success stories from any clubs ins and outs and just say "look, they find bargains". You'll probably be saying it in a year about Ben Godfrey when you find out we bought him for £600k from York City, but you won't mention the £1.5m we paid for Ignasi Miquel the year before before paying him off an releasing him after a year..... we need somebody doing a dissertation to do a proper comparison, but if a year which yields zero players means a cat 1 club has wasted £3m (bag of fag packet), then seems that its fairly easy to waste £3m in the transfer market too? 

Can't be bothered to look at all of our transfer business on young players, but you see "look Godfrey cost just £600k", but in reality those two players together cost £2.1m with a 50% success rate.... or the cost of running a Category 2 academy for a year.

Its undeniable that Brentford have done some excellent business and have been adept at picking players... but they seem to have had some flops too... think they paid £2m for Lewis Macleod from Rangers and he's played 24 games in 3.5 years..... have to factor in the players that they don't recoup on too. 

[NorwichLad]

12 hours ago, G-Ram said:

Not necessarily Harry Kane was pants on loan for you lot

Don't see how that disproves my point..... flopped for us in the Premier League and therefore wasn't ready for Spurs in the Premier League and went back to the Championship for another season? 

Clearly a player who can't cut it in League One in 2017/18 isn't going to cut it in the Championship in the 2018/19 season.... that's my point.... Carlton Morris been patchy in League One so needs to stay there next season. Ben Godfrey has bossed it, therefore should get his chance in the Championship.

Makes sense to me.

[G-Ram]

4 hours ago, NorwichLad said:

Don't see how that disproves my point..... flopped for us in the Premier League and therefore wasn't ready for Spurs in the Premier League and went back to the Championship for another season? 

Clearly a player who can't cut it in League One in 2017/18 isn't going to cut it in the Championship in the 2018/19 season.... that's my point.... Carlton Morris been patchy in League One so needs to stay there next season. Ben Godfrey has bossed it, therefore should get his chance in the Championship.

Makes sense to me.

But Kane didnt boss it in the championship the next season though did he? he was terrible if anything he only got a chance at spurs through injury & became undroppable 

point is you cant judge all players by their loan spell, its who their playing with, the side their in, application etc. Lingard went from being rubbish for us & struggling to get in the side ahead of russell & ince to going back to United & starting 

[JAT]

On 17/05/2018 at 12:57, RiddingsRam said:

The players who I could think could slot straight into our 343 system are 

Callum guy - rave reviews everywhere hes gone will compliment Huddlestone.

Jayden Bogle - perfect answer to the right wing back role and allow Wisdom to slot into the right of a back 3 

Luke Thomas - made for one the roles behind the main striker. 

Max Lowe - again perfect for the left wing back role. 

IF a massive IF as suspected Vydra does make way. And Keogh moves on without any signings we could still line up strongly.

                           Carson 

      Wisdom.    Davies.   Pearce

Bogle.    Guy.    Huddlestone.   Lowe

         Thomas.        Lawrence 

                   Jerome 

 

I'd swap pearce with forsyth

[Shaftesbury st]

On 17/05/2018 at 13:07, sage said:

Anyone who thinks we can put 3 or 4 u23s in the starring line up and finish top ten is living on fantasy island. 

Rowett wants 18 senior players for the starting XI and bench and u23s beyond that.

That would mean with injuries and suspensions there will be 1 to 4 young players on the bench most games.

That would be a balanced way to start the season and if the subs play well enough reasonably consistently, they begin to start games.

 

At last someone who is talking sense, totally agree. Clubs with massive budgets and people going on about academy players, how many have been and watched games?. If they were ready they would have been near the first team but they aren’t. 

I love the Mr Hanson quote further down the thread, how can you compare our academy to that era, whilst it’s doing a good job it’s way off that calibre of product and network of scouts even. 

If people want academy players then fine but please don’t slate the manager or the team when we are blown away by teams like Boro with strength and pace like Traore and Britt up front, men against boys. 

[NorwichLad]

21 hours ago, G-Ram said:

But Kane didnt boss it in the championship the next season though did he? he was terrible if anything he only got a chance at spurs through injury & became undroppable 

Had gone out and scored 16 goals in 65 games as a teenager before getting a shot at Spurs at 20...... where he scored 4 goals in 19 games in his breakthrough season.

The takeaway is that Spurs didn't leave Kane stuck in their U23 side giving him the odd cameo from the bench... they sent him out to League One and the Championship to toughen up and get some of mistakes out of his system....

Was out on loan at 17, 18, 19..... don't see how you are arguing against my point that the best place for young players is out on loan playing mens football, which is essentially the point that I've made? 

The point I'm making is that Derby should use League One sides and lesser Championship sides to develop their players like they use YOU to develop theirs..... sending out their Harry Kane's and Tammy Abraham's and Kasey Palmer's.