Time for youth

[NorwichLad]

6 minutes ago, curtains said:

Do you get the impression that some on here just don’t know what They arena.king about because I do. 

Well I don't think papaphet has thought through his position on this, put it that way.

He seems to be advocating signing teenage talent from League 1 and doesn't care about "facilities", but hasn't thought about the fact that these young talents aren't going to sign for sides which have poor facilities.

Doesn't seem to matter whether they are 12 or 18 to me.... if they are good then there is competition for their signature, and if there is competition for their signature then you need to impress them.

Besides.... if you are 6th in the North group of your u18 league then its almost a certainty that you currently have a few players in that group who are going to have at least good Championship careers.... and could be in your first team in a couple of years? 

[Papahet]

I ain't much of a ITK regarding Norwich, but what I do know if that they've been producing players from the youth ranks way before this Category one rubbish and obsession with having the best facilities in the land. Chris Martin always springs to mind obviously, Jacob Murphy, Josh Murphy. the obvious three.

Why can Coventry produce player after player each year without these top of the range facilities and category one? Where do they sit in these little youth leagues eh? Shipley, Bayliss, Ponticelli and Burge featured last night against an experienced Notts County side. All four have come from the youth ranks, jumped in the first team and none looked out of place out there. Probably be sold at a tidy profit if they fail to make league one. I think Derby were looking at Bayliss in January; another player who'd be signed and pushing the players who have been here 5+ years down the line and ultimately out the door.

Before that, produced Maddison, before that Callum Wilson...

Yet we at Derby brag about one or two players in the first team, despite spending however many more millions on the academy and what not than little old Coventry

[Curtains]

2 minutes ago, NorwichLad said:

Well I don't think papaphet has thought through his position on this, put it that way.

He seems to be advocating signing teenage talent from League 1 and doesn't care about "facilities", but hasn't thought about the fact that these young talents aren't going to sign for sides which have poor facilities.

Doesn't seem to matter whether they are 12 or 18 to me.... if they are good then there is competition for their signature, and if there is competition for their signature then you need to impress them.

Besides.... if you are 6th in the North group of your u18 league then its almost a certainty that you currently have a few players in that group who are going to have at least good Championship careers.... and could be in your first team in a couple of years? 

Are you of the view that players who come  through the academy should be put in the 1st team ahead of senior professionals just because they are one of our own or just because youth should be used even if they aren’t yet ready or good enough. 

 

[NorwichLad]

Just now, Papahet said:

I ain't much of a ITK regarding Norwich, but what I do know if that they've been producing players from the youth ranks way before this Category one rubbish and obsession with having the best facilities in the land. Chris Martin always springs to mind obviously, Jacob Murphy, Josh Murphy. the obvious three.

Why can Coventry produce player after player each year without these top of the range facilities and category one? Where do they sit in these little youth leagues eh? Shipley, Bayliss, Ponticelli and Burge featured last night against an experienced Notts County side. All four have come from the youth ranks, jumped in the first team and none looked out of place out there. Probably be sold at a tidy profit if they fail to make league one. I think Derby were looking at Bayliss in January.

Before that then produced Maddison, before that they produced Callum Wilson.

Yet we at Derby brag about one or two players in the first team, despite spending however many more millions on the academy and what not than ickle old Coventry

 

Before Category 1 we had a satellite academy somewhere near Watford.

Before that we had a satellite academy somewhere near Bristol.

The words and semantics and labels may be brand new..... but the fact remains that we've always been serious about producing players and invested money in that side of the football business.

You appear to be suggesting that Derby cut back on investment in youth. 

Current performance of your U18 side seems to suggest that you've got a bit of talent in that team. 

Let me tell you something about the time we decided to massively cut back on our youth team system.... it resulted in us closing down our satellite academy near Bristol somewhere around the turn of the millennium. 

That academy had discovered Craig Bellamy, Ade Akinbiyi, Darren Eadie, and many more. 

Southampton stepped in to fill the vacuum with a similar facility..... out of that stepped Gareth Bale. He probably would have been a Norwich player if we'd not decided to cut back on our investment.

We then had a decade long barren run where Shackell, Chris Martin and Joe Lewis were pretty much the only players of Championship to come out of our youth team.

What we have coming through NOW is the result of increased spending starting SIX years ago. These things take times to pay dividends. 

[NorwichLad]

4 minutes ago, curtains said:

Are you of the view that players who come  through the academy should be put in the 1st team ahead of senior professionals just because they are one of our own or just because youth should be used even if they aren’t yet ready or good enough. 

Odd question, of course not.

What seems to work well for us is a season long loan in League One..... do well and you get a chance.

Its what we did with Jacob Murphy and Josh Murphy and this season Ben Godfrey has been stand out for Shrewsbury, probably go into our team this season. Remi Matthews at Plymouth too.... 

... if you don't pull up trees in League One then you aren't Championship standard, if you stand out then you are. 

Championship sides should use League One like Premier League sides use the Championship. You've taken Kasey Palmer for the season, you should have players on season long loans at League One sides. 

Seems to be working well for us in recent times. 

[Curtains]

1 minute ago, NorwichLad said:

Odd question, of course not.

What seems to work well for us is a season long loan in League One..... do well and you get a chance.

Its what we did with Jacob Murphy and Josh Murphy and this season Ben Godfrey has been stand out for Shrewsbury, probably go into our team this season.

Championship sides should use League One like Premier League sides use the Championship. You've taken Kasey Palmer for the season, you should have players on season long loans at League One sides. 

Seems to be working well for us in recent times. 

Some people just want us to throw in youth from the academy direct with out loan experience 

[Papahet]

Well our lovely academy wasn't enough to convince Zak Blunt to commit here, instead he went and joined Matlock Town.

Farred Rawson is another who wasn't happy here and left for Forest Green. We tried for nearly half a year to get him down to another contract. Proof most players don't give a crap about facilities and just want to play football; whether it's on a state of the art 3g pitch with fancy sandpits or on at the back of a council estate down in the non leagues

[NorwichLad]

3 minutes ago, curtains said:

Some people just want us to throw in youth from the academy direct with out loan experience 

About 10 years ago we had a few young talents who we seemed to keep around the place, give them cameos etc, they'd never fulfill their potential and then end up in the Conference.

Far better to loan out a 19 year old to League One for the season..... 

This season we loaned out 3 players to Shrewsbury for a season long loan...... Carlton Morris, Ben Godfrey and Ebou Adams. All 20/21.

Here was the result:

Ben Godfrey: Been a revelation, clearly ready for Championship, stick him in our team next season.

Carlton Morris: Done fairly well but patchy form, should probably send him back to that league for another year. Re-assess if he has a more consistent season.

Ebou Adams: Out of his depth, sent back early and then released from his contract. Now playing Conference.

Its a great litmus test. Just get them out playing.... let them sink or swim when they reach 20.

[Curtains]

3 minutes ago, NorwichLad said:

About 10 years ago we had a few young talents who we seemed to keep around the place, give them cameos etc, they'd never fulfill their potential and then end up in the Conference.

Far better to loan out a 19 year old to League One for the season..... 

This season we loaned out 3 players to Shrewsbury for a season long loan...... Carlton Morris, Ben Godfrey and Ebou Adams. All 20/21.

Here was the result:

Ben Godfrey: Been a revelation, clearly ready for Championship, stick him in our team next season.

Carlton Morris: Done fairly well but patchy form, should probably send him back to that league for another year. Re-assess if he has a more consistent season.

Ebou Adams: Out of his depth, sent back early and then released from his contract. Now playing Conference.

Its a great litmus test. Just get them out playing.... let them sink or swim when they reach 20.

So Gary Rowett has it right loaning out Elsinik  and Lowe and Vernam etc 

Good on him 

[NorwichLad]

6 minutes ago, Papahet said:

Well our lovely academy wasn't enough to convince Zak Blunt to commit here, instead he went and joined Matlock Town.

Perhaps he is mentally ill. 

We had a youth player ask to leave Norwich when they were in the Championship because Paul Lambert said that he was a squad player and couldn't promise him regular football. 

Here's his career since: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Spillane_(footballer)

Suspect 15 games a year in the Championship seems a better offer now... in hindsight? Wonder what he does for the day job. 

[NorwichLad]

Just now, curtains said:

So Gary Rowett has it right loaning out Elsinik  and Lowe and Vernam etc 

Goog on him 

Yes. 

No substitute for mens football.

Some players look at level above for the U23's or U18's but can't cope against 34 year old centre backs with bent noses who want to kick you for daring to try and nutmeg them.

We had a player called Jamar Loza who was lightning fast and would regularly score hat-tricks for the reserves. Went out on loads of loans but couldn't replicate in League Two and now in the conference.

Just get them out playing football. If you can't cut it in League One then you won't cut it at Derby. 

[angieram]

Curtains has his own agenda when it comes to our young players and regularly uses this statement when defending Rowett's team choices, which are always ultra-safe. We're used to it.

Most of the calls to get under 23s into the first team came when we were playing particularly badly in February and March and to be fair it might have helped to inject a little energy and pride back into the team. As it was, a change of formation and a belligerent Cardiff manager did that for us! 

We've only had one under 23s player this season holding a regular place in a League One side, Callum Guy, with Max Lowe getting limited game time at play off team Shrewsbury, but looking good when he does play.

We've had two other guys, Timi Max Elsnik and Kellan Gordon doing fairly well at League Two Swindon ( until a change of manager).

We've also had lots of injuries of players out on loan at a lower level and that may be a bigger issue regarding their chances of success in the Championship as you need players who are tough enough as well as good enough.

I think your comment about giving time for the academy to mature is an important one, @NorwichLad as we're still quite new to Academy One status - two to three seasons. 

Our under 18s have certainly impressed this season playing at under 23 level whilst so many of the older lads have been out on loan and maybe we should be looking more to them for our future players. Unfortunately, some Derby fans aren't known for their patience! 

[Day]

24 minutes ago, NorwichLad said:

What we have coming through NOW is the result of increased spending starting SIX years ago. These things take times to pay dividends. 

This is the key point in all of this, the investment into the academy is for the future of this football club, far too early for any apples to drop from the tree but we are seeing positive signs with the U18’s. 

I might be way off here, but the academy stick is being thrown in to help beat the owner over the head for the recruitment under his tenure, when this area of investment should be applauded and be grateful for.

Think it’s a shame we need a Norwich fan to come on and defend our academy, our shirts are only a tenner in the club shop if you fancy a change. I mean yellow isn’t a great colour let’s be honest.

[Curtains]

14 minutes ago, angieram said:

Curtains has his own agenda when it comes to our young players and regularly uses this statement when defending Rowett's team choices, which are always ultra-safe. We're used to it.

Most of the calls to get under 23s into the first team came when we were playing particularly badly in February and March and to be fair it might have helped to inject a little energy and pride back into the team. As it was, a change of formation and a belligerent Cardiff manager did that for us! 

We've only had one under 23s player this season holding a regular place in a League One side, Callum Guy, with Max Lowe getting limited game time at play off team Shrewsbury, but looking good when he does play.

We've had two other guys, Timi Max Elsnik and Kellan Gordon doing fairly well at League Two Swindon ( until a change of manager).

We've also had lots of injuries of players out on loan at a lower level and that may be a bigger issue regarding their chances of success in the Championship as you need players who are tough enough as well as good enough.

I think your comment about giving time for the academy to mature is an important one, @NorwichLad as we're still quite new to Academy One status - two to three seasons. 

Our under 18s have certainly impressed this season playing at under 23 level whilst so many of the older lads have been out on loan and maybe we should be looking more to them for our future players. Unfortunately, some Derby fans aren't known for their patience! 

No not my own agenda .

Just the common sense agenda and not the knee jerk reactions we get in here  

Style of football crap etc etc 

Admit it you wanted academy players thrown in at the deep end regardless 

PS I know just as much about Academy players as you do and please stop having a go at Rowett saying he’s ultra safe  

 

[NorwichLad]

45 minutes ago, Papahet said:

Yet we at Derby brag about one or two players in the first team, despite spending however many more millions on the academy and what not than little old Coventry

You do realise that Coventry have only been tinpot for a few years and were prior to that an established Championship side, and prior to that a Premier League side?

And that despite their current lowly position in the league system they have actually managed to keep hold of Category 2 status, which is the same level as most Championship sides and only costs about £1m a year less to maintain than Category 1 status?

They have the same level of academy as Nottingham Forest and Ipswich Town.

When Callum Wilson broke through they were a Championship side.

You can advocate dropping from Category 1 to Category 2 to save £1m a year if you want.... but in other posts that doesn't seem to be what you are advocating at all.

You also reference Crewe who are actually the smallest club to hold Category 2 status. 

For the sake of about 80 grand a month.... its probably worth putting your kids up against teams like Man Utd and Liverpool. 

Its such a paltry difference financially, and a huge achievement for Crewe to maintain the level that they do.

Its a bit embarrassing really to suggest saving £80k a month to have an academy the same size as Crewe's and Coventry's..... a year after selling Will Hughes for £8m? 

Pretty sure that £80k a month is covered by releasing Darren Bent in 6 weeks time. That's really the level of expenditure you are talking about there.... that's the difference between you and Coventry..... Darren Bent's wages. 

[NorwichLad]

10 minutes ago, David said:

This is the key point in all of this, the investment into the academy is for the future of this football club, far too early for any apples to drop from the tree but we are seeing positive signs with the U18’s. 

I might be way off here, but the academy stick is being thrown in to help beat the owner over the head for the recruitment under his tenure, when this area of investment should be applauded and be grateful for.

Think it’s a shame we need a Norwich fan to come on and defend our academy, our shirts are only a tenner in the club shop if you fancy a change. I mean yellow isn’t a great colour let’s be honest.

Well if you've had Category 1 status for 3 years.....

.... Then a 13 year old then is half way to being 19..... so I reckon you'll start seeing a marked improvement in standard of player coming through in about 2020/21. 

If you don't have several quality players by 2022 then talk about sacking off your academy ?

Norwich fans have just purchased £5m worth of 5 year bonds from the club to keep Category 1 status. It would be a shame to have it for 6 years and then lose it.... before we've fully benefited. 

By keeping it for 11 years it means that we'll see a 'full cycle', because players join at 8 years old don't they.... meaning that in 5 years time we may have 19 year old products which joined at 8 years old. 

The chap above cites Coventry as an example.... they signed James Maddison when he was 10 years old and a Championship club. Sold him at 19 years old.

That's 9 years.

And yet he is writing off Category 1 status after 3 years.

Well your James Maddison is currently 13 years old if he signed at 10.... so a good 5 years off the first team ?

[Papahet]

So the only players who'd be much cop are the ones who have performed in league one?

That kinda show's my point then; there's like Elsnik who has impressed in league 2, not a single other player has looked anything special this season. Bennett found his level in league 2 with Notts, Gordan look's pretty average ditto Callum Guy. So that's one player, one player we've sent out on loan to a league 2 side who could potentially be a first team player for Derby.

Lowe couldn't get a game at Shrewsbury and yet there's several posters mentioning him for next season here ? Zanzala had a poor spell at Accrington and Charles Vernam? He's been on loaned out to a side in Iceland, Coventry and most recently Grimsby, nothing to suggest he'll make it here when he's 22 this year.

So basically the only two players who look likely to make the step up into the first team is one signed from Cheltenham and another was brought from Slovenia when he was 18. Pretty poor return isn't it?  Then you see Fulham bringing through Sessengoun at 17 without spending a great deal of time, nor money on the academy. His potential sale will help them for years to come. What has Hughes and Hendrick going done for us long term?

[Curtains]

Just now, Papahet said:

So the only players who'd be much cop are the ones who have performed in league one?

That kinda show's my point then; there's like Elsnik who has impressed in league 2, not a single other player has looked anything special this season. Bennett found his level in league 2 with Notts, Gordan look's pretty average ditto Callum Guy. So that's one player, one player we've sent out on loan to a league 2 side who could potentially be a first team player for Derby.

Lowe couldn't get a game at Shrewsbury and yet there's several posters mentioning him for next season here ? Zanzala had a poor spell at Accrington and Charles Vernam? He's been on loaned out to a side in Iceland, Coventry and most recently Grimsby, nothing to suggest he'll make it here when he's 22 this year.

So basically the only two players who look likely to make the step up into the first team is one signed from Cheltenham and another was brought from Slovenia when he was 18. Pretty poor return

This is very  true. 

[NorwichLad]

3 minutes ago, Papahet said:

So basically the only two players who look likely to make the step up into the first team is one signed from Cheltenham and another was brought from Slovenia when he was 18. Pretty poor return

As mentioned above.... Coventry signed James Maddison as a 10 year old, and sold him as a 19 year old.

But you keep citing them as an excellent example of an academy and are writing off Category 1 status 3 years after making the infrastructure improvements to obtain that status.

So your Maddison's and Wilson's are only 13..... not old enough to play in League One or for Derby at the moment.

Check back in 5 years time. 

Or do you think its like a computer game, where you get the status and all of your 17 year olds are magically 'leveled up'? 

[Curtains]

1 minute ago, NorwichLad said:

As mentioned above.... Coventry signed James Maddison as a 10 year old, and sold him as a 19 year old.

But you keep citing them as an excellent example of an academy and are writing off Category 1 status 3 years after making the infrastructure improvements to obtain that status.

So your Maddison's and Wilson's are only 13..... not old enough to play in League One or for Derby at the moment.

Check back in 5 years time. 

Or do you think its like a computer game, where you get the status and all of your 17 year olds are magically 'leveled up'? 

Whilst the Academy 1 status is Important as regards attracting the better players it’s not the be all and end all. 

The players still have to be coached by a good coach to reach the required standards for the first team.