Time for youth

[NorwichLad]

8 hours ago, Papahet said:

So what's the actual purpose of the academy? spending so much time, effort and money on it, only for them to be released to a lower league club?

Costs about £3m a year to run a Category 1 academy.

You've received £18m for Hughes and Hendrick alone.... plus got to use them for 7 years without purchasing them.

So your running costs for 6 years covered by those two players alone?

 

[rynny]

8 hours ago, Papahet said:

How many of those you've mentioned where released by DCFC though? Mutch and Kean didn't kick a first team football here. We didn't see them good enough, so why should the club take credit for there careers later on?

In twenty odd years, we've produced like half a dozen decent players from the academy that have made an impact in the first team: Huddlestone, Grant, Camp, Hendrick, Hughes, Hanson. Hardly impressive, considering how much time, money and effort gets put into it.

Now all of a sudden it's the assumption that they'll be several players vying for the first team next season, when it's taken us 2 decades to bring through 6 players of any real note.

If they are good enough they'll be in that first team already, regardless of the buying of these big named established players. Sessengon at Fulham the prime example. I've seen reports of 100m for the kid, surely proof you don't need no fancy training grounds to produce top talent - it's a natural gift.

You are just aswel buying 20 year old's from league one and two and improving them, a'la Brentford w/ Ollie Watkins from Exeter. Funnily enough our better player was signed from Cheltenham and not brought through our so called amazing academy

 

 

 

 

In twenty odd years how much was put into the youth team? It is only now Mel is here that any real money has been. 

It is hard for youth players to break into the first team when the first team manager doesn't care about the youth team. Billy Davies for example completely scrapped the reserve team, how is a youth player supposed to progress from there? Just because it hasn't been successful in the past doesn't mean it will not be now. 

[We'll be back in 81]

If think next season Lowe should be challenging for left back or left wing back and in central midfield Elsnick and Guy have got to be given a go maybe along side a more experienced player.

Further forward Vernam might get a chance playing behind the front men in some games.

[Parsnip]

Mel has stated that he wants academy graduates to make up 50% of the first team squad within the next 4(?) years.

I'd gladly accept a couple of mid table seasons if we're working towards that goal. I think a lot of fans would.

No relegation scraps though thanks - my bowels can't take relegation scraps.

[Papahet]

5 hours ago, NorwichLad said:

Costs about £3m a year to run a Category 1 academy.

You've received £18m for Hughes and Hendrick alone.... plus got to use them for 7 years without purchasing them.

So your running costs for 6 years covered by those two players alone?

 

Any club can produce the odd player though, Norwich sold Jacob Murphy for what, 12 million? How many players came through the Crewe ranks back in the day? What's Fulham status like at academy level? Doubt they make invest the same amount of money as we do here. Yet can produce guys like Sessengoun, even Bettinelli is a decent keeper brought through youth football.

You are better off getting talent from league two and improving them. Ollie Watkins, Maddison, Alli, Marriott ETC. Than splashing millions per year on the academy.

[DcfcJack]

Does anyone know what has happened to Kyle Mcallister? Know he was injured when we signed him but thought he came back and played for the u23's this season, gone from the face of the earth again.

[Rample]

I'm not opposed to signings in the mould of last year as long as they're appropriate - there was nothing fundamentally wrong with Davies or Huddlestone, they were both value for money, but we didn't really set the team up right. An older winger with the brains to create chances wouldn't be worse than we have now, but we do need energy elsewhere to compensate.

If we are going to use youth, and I hope we do, then they need to be integrated not thrown in. Thomas for ecample should start getting 15-20 minutes a game. Guy and Elsnik likewise.

Is it just me thinking Hanson is blocking players now?

[desirelines]

The Brentford model is an interesting one. They got rid of their Youth Academy because of the costs involved and the competition for youngsters in London being too high, and instead adopted a B-team made up of players released from the under-19s/21s/23s of Premier League and Championship clubs. 

More about it here: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/apr/05/brentford-ditched-their-academy-premier-league-outcasts

[Abu Dhabi Ram]

2 hours ago, Papahet said:

Any club can produce the odd player though, Norwich sold Jacob Murphy for what, 12 million? How many players came through the Crewe ranks back in the day? What's Fulham status like at academy level? Doubt they make invest the same amount of money as we do here. Yet can produce guys like Sessengoun, even Bettinelli is a decent keeper brought through youth football.

You are better off getting talent from league two and improving them. Ollie Watkins, Maddison, Alli, Marriott ETC. Than splashing millions per year on the academy.

Errrrr I think this is pretty much the same gamble to be honest, for every Malcolm Christie there is a Liam Dickinson. 

You seem to be against having or spending on an academy, but I would far rather spend on the academy than blow 6 million on someone like Bradley Johnson. 

[ramsbottom]

Unless we sell or wind up the contracts of 2/3s of the first team there's no point in playing all of the lads mentioned at the start of the thread, just for the sake of it.  Some might swim, but others will sink, and before you know it League 1 beckons.  Lowe, Elsnik, Bird & Thomas look decent talents but despite the recent revamps, there's a massive difference between under 23s and Championship football.  I'd rather we integrate them slowly with sub appearances and starting the majority of them in the Carling Cup.  As others have pointed out, if they were considered to up to the standard of Hendrick & Hughes they'd have played already.  Just because we increased the spending in the academy, it can still take years to provide players of the required quality, most of those mentioned above have already been with us before Mel's millions started rolling through the door.

[dcfcfan1]

2 hours ago, Parsnip said:

Mel has stated that he wants academy graduates to make up 50% of the first team squad within the next 4(?) years.

I'd gladly accept a couple of mid table seasons if we're working towards that goal. I think a lot of fans would.

No relegation scraps though thanks - my bowels can't take relegation scraps.

50% is unrealistic to be honest, But Maybe a couple of players (like under Mac), but Id like us to be competitive

 

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

Based on the noises coming from the club this season I would think Thomas, Elsnik, Bogle and Lowe might be the ones closest to cracking the ceiling and getting in to the first team on a more regular basis.

[Parsnip]

9 minutes ago, dcfcfan1 said:

50% is unrealistic to be honest, But Maybe a couple of players (like under Mac), but Id like us to be competitive

 

It does seem unrealistic, surely no other team is achieving that?

But if that's the official target then we should be powering towards it a bit quicker - and definitely not selling Thomas to West Ham.

[NorwichLad]

23 hours ago, Papahet said:

Any club can produce the odd player though, Norwich sold Jacob Murphy for what, 12 million?

Not sure what your point is here because we are also Category 1 status, and we kept the better twin. 

23 hours ago, Papahet said:

What's Fulham status like at academy level? Doubt they make invest the same amount of money as we do here.

Category 1.... so proving your own point wrong really. 

23 hours ago, Papahet said:

How many players came through the Crewe ranks back in the day?

Different game now I'm afraid.... When Huddersfield closed their academy their MD was quoted as saying that there are more Man City scouts watching games in West Yorkshire than Huddersfield scouts. No chance competing now if you aren't Category 1.

Willing to be everything in my bank account that more Championship or Premier League standard players will come through at Derby over then next 10 years than Forest down the road, who have Category 2.... even though it only costs £1m less.

23 hours ago, Papahet said:

You are better off getting talent from league two and improving them. Ollie Watkins, Maddison, Alli, Marriott ETC. Than splashing millions per year on the academy.

There are always exceptions of course... some players are late developers so drop out at 18 but work there way up. Player called Cameron Norman just signed for Oxford in League One after a season at Kings Lynn, released by Norwich 18 months ago and I think he's going to be one we regret. 

As for the players you listed.... Ollie Watkins comes from Exeter which is a strange part of the country where there are only two professional clubs, so you'd have to be an extra special talent to have a big club pay to move your entire family to sign you outside of the 90 minute rule... e.g. like the next MIchael Owen or something. 

I don't know if Derby really have the money to take a punt on 18/19 year olds at £5m a time though really? That's what we paid for Maddison, and how much Spurs paid for Dele Ali.... and remember that both of those sides signed for Premier League sides (which we were at the time), and that training facilities would have been a big factor in them agreeing the moves.... a lot of the facilities at whatever your complex is called would have been built to comply with Category 1 regulations, like the indoor pitch and a training pitch which is an exact replica of the pitch at your ground.

James Maddison left Coventry for a Premier League side which had a Premier League standard training ground, not a Championship side which doesn't invest in youth. 

And Jack Marriott came through at Ipswich which is Category 2.... but Category 2 is still £2m a year, and Ipswich have always been a bit dumb when it comes to youth..... sold Jordan Rhodes for £250k I think? Peterborough are very good at identifying diamonds amongst the rough from reject lists or non league and then flipping them for a profit to Championship sides... it keeps them afloat.... 

Our category 1 status is beginning to pay real dividends, got Jamal Lewis playing at left back at the minute and Remi Matthews will be our keeper next season. We've had an attacking midfielder on loan at Fortuna Sittard this season who will probably be replacing James Maddison. And of course we've kept the better Murphy who plays on our left wing. 

We could realistically have 4 or 5 homegrown players in our team next season,

We definitely can't afford to spend £17m+ on 4 players this summer, which is your strategy.... (Watkins cost Brentford £1.8m, Ali and Maddison cost £5m each, Peterborough want £5m for Marriott). 

[NottsRam77]

On 17/05/2018 at 12:27, MackworthRamIsGod said:

I will make peace with the fact we sell the likes of Vydra, providing we don't use the money to sign ageing players dropping from the prem. 

It is time we put trust in some of our youth players to see if they are good enough.

Expectation for the upcoming season will be the lowest for a good few years, so maybe this is the best time for Rowett to be brave and give youth a chance.

Max Lowe, Luke Thomas, Callum Guy, Elsnik, Zanzala, Vernam, Max Bird, Babos...surely out of these players at least 2 are ready to make the step up.

Rather than seeing two over 30s in midfield, lets see a youngster alongside experience.

This season we may find a new Will Hughes, or even Sessegnon.

 

I agree completely but My question is Will said young players get the patience that is needed with young players finding their feet 

or will they start to get booed at every slightly mis placed pass when we find ourselves 0-0 with Ipswich after 70 mins or will the keyboard warriors come out in force cos luke Thomas isn't the Lionel messi that some on social media are building him up to be 

this club hasn't got the fan base for patience sadly 

the constant battering of rowett by some after only 2 slightly restricted transfer windows case in point,

 

 

[NorwichLad]

@Papahet

Since you clearly know absolutely nothing about the academy system but still think you are qualified to have an opinion on the subject, here's what that extra £1m for Category 1 buys you.....

This is the league that the Derby U18 team currently plays in... you clearly have some talent, because you finished in the top half. 

Both Norwich and Fulham are in Group South. There are 24 sides in total in the U18 Premier League (two groups). 

And here is the division that you would have to play in if you dropped down to Category B in a cost cutting exercise to save yourself a paltry £1m a year. 

I'm sure this explains the competitive advantage that Derby currently have over Nottingham Forest, because that £1m extra means that 14 year old Bob Messi who you discover playing footy at the local Power League will decide to come and play against Man Utd, Man City, Everton and Liverpool instead of against Barnsley and Bolton. 

Similar applies to Norwich vs Ipswich,.... where obviously everybody wants to play against Arsenal, Chelsea and Spurs.... instead of Millwall and Bristol City. Irrespective of whether Millwall and Bristol City might have a sweet little late developer through now and again. 

Personally I think if the likes of Derby, Fulham and Norwich have aspirations to become established Premier League sides, like we should.... then it makes sense that you start with Premier League standard facilities and at least attempt to produce a few Premier League standard players.

Remember that it isn't just youth players using those enhanced facilities, senior players use the same training ground. 

Forest did have Oliver Burke come through.... is it time to point out that he may have been more than a tad bit over rated though? ?

 

[Papahet]

42 minutes ago, NorwichLad said:

@Papahet

Since you clearly know absolutely nothing about the academy system but still think you are qualified to have an opinion on the subject, here's what that extra £1m for Category 1 buys you.....

This is the league that the Derby U18 team currently plays in... you clearly have some talent, because you finished in the top half. 

Both Norwich and Fulham are in Group South. There are 24 sides in total in the U18 Premier League (two groups). 

And here is the division that you would have to play in if you dropped down to Category B in a cost cutting exercise to save yourself a paltry £1m a year. 

I'm sure this explains the competitive advantage that Derby currently have over Nottingham Forest, because that £1m extra means that 14 year old Bob Messi who you discover playing footy at the local Power League will decide to come and play against Man Utd, Man City, Everton and Liverpool instead of against Barnsley and Bolton. 

Similar applies to Norwich vs Ipswich,.... where obviously everybody wants to play against Arsenal, Chelsea and Spurs.... instead of Millwall and Bristol City. Irrespective of whether Millwall and Bristol City might have a sweet little late developer through now and again. 

Personally I think if the likes of Derby, Fulham and Norwich have aspirations to become established Premier League sides, like we should.... then it makes sense that you start with Premier League standard facilities and at least attempt to produce a few Premier League standard players.

Remember that it isn't just youth players using those enhanced facilities, senior players use the same training ground. 

Forest did have Oliver Burke come through.... is it time to point out that he may have been more than a tad bit over rated though? ?

 

Yeah, and I'd swapped all the youth league positions and pointless training facilities for what Burnley and Huddersfield have in a fookin flash.

Facilities haven't helped this club in the slightest. In fact i'd argue we've gone backwards since we've improved them and gained Cat 1 status. What's a dozen pitches get you at the end of it all? Too much time and effort being wasted on youth football, get it right at first team level first and foremost. Our best prospect wasn't even picked up through our own actual academy, he was signed from Cheltenham friggin' Town.

And it makes you sound like such a hypocrite, you've signed a top talent in Maddison from Coventry and now wanting what? 20 odd million for the lad. You might as well pick up these kids from lower leagues, stick them in and around the first team or send them back out on loan (you did this with Maddison/Coventry) and make nice little profits on them, than stick with a kid from the kiddie wink level for 10 years and then later release them aged 19. Like Derby have with Callum Ball, Alex Cover, Farred Rawson...

Burke is overrated? Yeah but they still managed to pull in more than we got for our most gifted asset in Will Hughes. When they had a fraud in Fawaz running the club, they've done a brilliant job producing talent and then selling off; Darlow, Lascelles, Burke.

[NorwichLad]

25 minutes ago, Papahet said:

And it makes you sound like such a hypocrite, you've signed a top talent in Maddison from Coventry and now wanting what? 20 odd million for the lad. You might as well pick up these kids from lower leagues, stick them in and around the first team and make nice little profits on them, 

Four things:

1). I support a club which has just raised £5m from its own fans to keep Category 1 status for the next 5 years. We raised that money in just a few days, extraordinary. 

2). The idea that because you can't sign a player from Coventry because you have a Category 1 status without being hypocrites is a strange suggestion, and it probably means I'm talking to a bit of a dimwit. We also signed Ben Godfrey from York.... but guess what... he was 17 so he went into our Category 1 U18 side and that's probably why he agreed to join. 

3). There is not an infinite supply of James Maddison's waiting to be rescued from League 1.... a transfer policy of primarily signing players from League One would probably lead you to League One. There are perhaps 2 quality players per year perhaps coming out of that league perhaps,... we plucked Anthony Pilkington out of that league years ago.... but there is a lot of competition for those players, and most of them seem to come via Peterborough United who are not mugs and don't sell players on the cheap. 

4). If every club starts closing their academy then where are the players going to come from exactly? If Coventry didn't have one then there there wouldn't be a James Maddison to sign. 

25 minutes ago, Papahet said:

you've signed a top talent in Maddison from Coventry and now wanting what? 20 odd million for the lad.

ps. You would rather have tinpot facilities and then advocate signing the dozens of James Maddisons which you for some reason think are in the squads of all 24 League One sides (trust me, they ain't).

Don't you think that James Maddison is ambitious? Don't you think he only agreed to sign for us because of our set up? You aren't making any sense mate, like no sense whatsoever. 

You think a player with the ability and ambition would sign for a side which doesn't have a full size covered pitch for when its snowing? You think a player of that level would sign for a side which doesn't have a full size outdoor replica of its primary playing surface? You think a player like that would sign for a side which doesn't have state of the art medical facilities? 

This isn't 1988. 

And we were in the Premier League when he signed. Being in the Premier League opens the doors to attracting players like that (he was being watched by Liverpool and Man City), you are advocating this as a strategy to get to the Premier League. It didn't work like that. 

But seeing as you think signing all the top class 18 year olds out of League One is the way forward.... name the best 5 players under 20 in League One right now? Go on then, who should Derby County shut down their academy to sign? Think I've got you in a check mate now? 

You know nothing about the academy system and think that there is a steady stream of James Maddison's in League One who are desperate to sign for a Championship side. There isn't. 

The FA should limit the number of players under 23 that can be loaned out by a single club. That would solve the problems with the academy system at the minute, closing academies isn't the answer for obvious reasons. 

When everybody has closed their academies presumably we'll have to scout the Sunday leagues? 

[NorwichLad]

Also.... you can say that you don't produce enough players perhaps. Its frustrating when a club puts years of time and money into a player and then he leaves for £100k or whatever and then ends up being a £2m player for somebody else. 

But that other clubs gain is also something that you benefit from.

Moaning when we released Chris Martin (Norwich academy product) and then signed him for £0 were you? Win some and you lose some. 

Its all part of the football ecosystem.  

The idea that you want to be a parasite club which does nothing for the game but leeches off of the efforts of clubs of similar size isn't one that would appeal to me. 

Proud to see Chris Martin and Jason Shackell go on to have good careers even if they didn't make us £12m like Jacob Murphy. Same with Korey Smith and Tom Adeyemi and Declan Rudd and Cameron McGeehan etc.

The idea that you want clubs like Norwich to keep on producing players for this league but want Derby to just become parasites picking up these players for free sort of feels a bit cheap to me?

[Curtains]

1 minute ago, NorwichLad said:

Also.... you can say that you don't produce enough players perhaps. Its frustrating when a club puts years of time and money into a player and then he leaves for £100k or whatever and then ends up being a £2m player for somebody else. 

But that other clubs gain is also something that you benefit from.

Moaning when we released Chris Martin (Norwich academy product) and then signed him for £0 were you? Win some and you lose some. 

Its all part of the football ecosystem.  

Do you get the impression that some on here just don’t know what They arena.king about because I do.