Too many number 10s

[duncanjwitham]

So apparently we've got 'too many number 10's' according to numerous posters on here, Ramage on Radio Derby and many others.  However, peoples definition of what a 'number 10' actually is seems radically different to what I've always understood it to be.  So two questions:

1 - What do you all think a 'number 10' actually *is*?

2 - Which players at Derby (including those out on loan) are 'number 10s'?

[Philmycock]

Will

[Curtains]

18 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

So apparently we've got 'too many number 10's' according to numerous posters on here, Ramage on Radio Derby and many others.  However, peoples definition of what a 'number 10' actually is seems radically different to what I've always understood it to be.  So two questions:

1 - What do you all think a 'number 10' actually *is*?

2 - Which players at Derby (including those out on loan) are 'number 10s'?

Kevin Hector 

[TuffLuff]

9 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

So apparently we've got 'too many number 10's' according to numerous posters on here, Ramage on Radio Derby and many others.  However, peoples definition of what a 'number 10' actually is seems radically different to what I've always understood it to be.  So two questions:

1 - What do you all think a 'number 10' actually *is*?

2 - Which players at Derby (including those out on loan) are 'number 10s'?

I think Ramage takes it to mean 'players who like to play further up the pitch but aren't strikers'. If you take that as it's loose definition then he has a point, because potentially that could include Vydra, Martin (acc. to Rowett), Ince, Hughes, Bryson, Butterfield, Weimann and even Johnson who really are players who want want to be attacking. That shows you how imbalanced the midfield is in all honesty 

[Animal is a Ram]

In our current system, somewhere between the midfield and the lone striker - historically it'd be the little of little and large combination.

Think we have lots that fit the first group - Butterfield, Hughes, Johnson, Bryson, Ince - but few for the second - Vydra, Russell.

 

[angieram]

To me, a number 10 is the old 'inside left' or 'inside right' position,  playing further forward than a typical midfielder in the space that players like Ince cut into, often creating chances for others as well as running onto lay-offs from the central striker.

Ince puzzles me because he is more of a number 10 than a true winger as he doesn't very often go down the wings all the way to the byeline. However, he isn't so good at creating chances for others as he will usually opt to shoot even when others are better placed to score.

Who would I say are Derby's number 10s?  Definitely Ince, Vydra, Nugent as we are currently using him, Anya and Russell (as they play, rather than as they are picked.)

I don't think we have really played Martin in that role other than occasionally when he and Bent have been on the pitch together.

As we have mainly used Bryson, Hughes and Johnson they have played too far back for me to be number 10s, but when we do play 4-2-3-1 could all fill that role. If we are going down that route though I think we need another strong defensive midfielder to play alongside Thorne/Johnson.

[Mr Tibbs]

Butterfield, Hughes and Vydra the stand outs that have been mentioned, Ince could play there too I guess. 

Is Hughes a number 10 though? Doesn't bring much to the table in that position IMO. 

A number 10 is an attack minded player who makes things happens in my view. Goals, assists, link up, create the space for others, thread balls in for others and has, probably the most key, variety. Be unpredictable. Drop short, go in behind or take a centre half away. Make yourself unmarkable so the oppo's defence and midfield don't know if you're coming or going. That's my idea anyway, whether there's a written description else where that differs I don't know. 

[1977 Ram Raider]

Vydra 

[EnigmaRam]

Ince is definitely the number 10. It says it on the back of his shirt.

[maxjam]

I'd say we have to many numbers 2s

[G STAR RAM]

Maggie's Den

[ramsbottom]

Before 2005 a No 10 was the smaller of two strikers, think Deans Saunders & Sturridge.

After 2005 a No 10 is the further most attacking midfielder in a 4-2-3-1/4-3-3

I'm not sure any of our current squad bar Vydra or maybe Bryson is an ideal fit to play there.  Ince isn't great with his back to goal, Buttefield can't think quick enough, and Hughes doesn't have the ability to get close to the 10 goals you want a No 10 to chip in with each season.  Therefore is 2 too many???

[jagerbob]

2 hours ago, duncanjwitham said:

So apparently we've got 'too many number 10's' according to numerous posters on here, Ramage on Radio Derby and many others.  However, peoples definition of what a 'number 10' actually is seems radically different to what I've always understood it to be.  So two questions:

1 - What do you all think a 'number 10' actually *is*?

2 - Which players at Derby (including those out on loan) are 'number 10s'?

A 10 is a forward player 7 attacking midfielder but not a target man or play on the soulder of last defender (ie what they now call a number 9)

Ince, Vydra, Nugent, Bryson, Butterfield, Hughes, Russell, possibly Martin if playing with Bent

[jagerbob]

In answer to why Rowett and Rame a think we have too many:

Consider that :

1)  We dont have any out and out wingers except perhaps Anya. The rest when playing wide forward roles would rather play inside.

2) We dont have any sitting central midfielders who are happy to play, and naturals to play central midfield in a 442 (except an injured george thorne)

[duncanjwitham]

1 hour ago, Mr Tibbs said:

Butterfield, Hughes and Vydra the stand outs that have been mentioned, Ince could play there too I guess. 

Is Hughes a number 10 though? Doesn't bring much to the table in that position IMO. 

A number 10 is an attack minded player who makes things happens in my view. Goals, assists, link up, create the space for others, thread balls in for others and has, probably the most key, variety. Be unpredictable. Drop short, go in behind or take a centre half away. Make yourself unmarkable so the oppo's defence and midfield don't know if you're coming or going. That's my idea anyway, whether there's a written description else where that differs I don't know. 

This is what's confusing me about the whole thing.  My take on a 'number 10' is pretty much like yours - someone who plays off the front, is creative and hopefully scores goals too - e.g. Totti, Sheringham, Bergkamp, possibly the likes of Zidane, Iniesta etc if you're really pushing the definition.

But then people are listing players like Vydra, Hughes and Butterfield, that are nothing really like that at all.  Vydra is just a play-on-the-last-mans-shoulder type who runs onto flick-ons/through-balls, he's not creative and he doesn't get on the ball that much.  I can just about see the argument for Hughes and Butterfield (in the same way you could include Iniesta), but it doesn't suit either of them - they're both better off deeper, getting on the ball a lot and pulling strings.  Ince is the closest we have IMO, but again, he's not really creative, he mostly just gets on the ball and dribbles towards goal.

And also, if you're pushing the definition to include everyone from Hughes and Bryson to Anya and Vydra, then that's every midfielder and striker at the club (bar Thorne and Bent).  So it's no wonder people think we've got too many of them.  That said, we definitely do have too many of the 'inside forward' types at the club (Russell, Ince, Anya, Blackman, Camara), plus Weimann and Vydra who are more run-in-behind type strikers. But if we're playing 433 or 4231, we probably need 4 or 5 of them, so it's not like we're massively overloaded.

[The_Sheriff]

5 hours ago, duncanjwitham said:

So apparently we've got 'too many number 10's' according to numerous posters on here, Ramage on Radio Derby and many others.  However, peoples definition of what a 'number 10' actually is seems radically different to what I've always understood it to be.  So two questions:

1 - What do you all think a 'number 10' actually *is*?

2 - Which players at Derby (including those out on loan) are 'number 10s'?

1-  a figure in between 9 & 11

2- only tom ince has number 10.

 

[toddy]

No. 10 does really depends on how old you are.

For me its the old inside left, a play maker and goalscorer, that plays link up to the  CF.

The kids will say Hazard is a good example of a modern no 10.

I don't see Ince in that position, more Vydra playing off Nugent.

 

[Dimmu]

For me nro 10 is same as Litmanen. Other examples Zidane, Bergkamp, Del Piero, Le Tissier, Scholes etc. Classic playmaker between midfield and striker(s). If there's only one striker, nro 10 becomes even more attacking minded.

I guess with our squad it means techically gifted, attacking minded midfielders and wide players. Hughes, Butterfield, Bryson, Ince, Camara and Anya. Of course we have Russell, Weimann and Bennett there too, but they don't fit to "good technical ability" category.

[ramblur]

I wonder if they all come at once?

[Millenniumram]

An number 10 is the player who plays in the central rol of the 3 in our 4231 system. A second striker so to speak, who has the freedom to both link up play and ghost beyond the lone centre forward to get in the box. In our system imo they need to be quick thinking, intelligent players, with a decent shot on them and some skill and energy about them. They're the flair players, those who you wouldn't nessercerily consider as the core of the team, but rather the potential match winners out of nothing.

The best at this in our current squad is clearly Vydra at the moment, and I don't buy the fact we have too many, in fact I think we have too few "natural" number 10s. You've also got Weimann out on loan who id consider to be best there, but beyond that you've got ince there as a second position and maybe at a push butterfield and Bryson. Struggle to see anyone else there