Forward: do we need one to hold the ball up? or is it a myth?

[Bris Vegas]

It really isn't very difficult. You either need a centre-forward willing to get involved in the link-up play, or three players in behind a 'final-pass striker' who are all capable of creating for themselves and said striker.

We currently don't have the right blend if Vydra is only looking to be that final-pass striker. 

It's easy to point to examples like Barcelona, Man City or Arsenal who don't play with a battering ram uptop on his own, but we're talking about world class teams who don't need a centre-forward constantly looking to drop in and link-up, even though the likes of Aguero, Sanchez and Suarez do get involved.

I think Southamtpon are the best example. They had Rickie Lambert and Graziano Pelle play that battering ram role who were more than capable of linking up, but as they signed better attacking players they could then change it up and start playing Shane Long through the middle.

We're not at that stage, we're not even close. I don't think any three of Ince, Russell, Camara, Blackman, Weimann, Hughes and Bryson are good enough or technical enough as an attacking unit to get away with playing a centre-forward in a 433 or 4231 whose only job is to get on the end of that final pass.

Vydra either has to adapt and improve as a link-up player, or we have to buy much better attacking midfielders.

[IlsonDerby]

I think Vydra will be fine when he's more aware of what's needed from him in this formation. Let's be honest Martin was best when the ball went to his chest/lower body for him to hold before laying it to a midfielder or winger. I don't recall him being much use at flicking on long High balls up to his head.

Vydra showed with that run on Tuesday evening that he has enough strength to hold the ball up, we just need to work with him to get him understanding that he needs his back to goal a bit more. That's not to say he can't play on the shoulder when we're putting the opposition under pressure but he needs to provide an outlet when we're under pressure.

 

 

[toddy]

13 hours ago, brady1993 said:

I think that is because he doesn't currently understand the tactical role of the central forward in the front three. He's frequently making the wrong tactical decision in the final third currently and it's hampering our attack. There was a moment in the first half against Leeds which summed it up for me. He was being marked by both Leeds centre backs just outside the penalty box left of centre of the pitch with a gap between the centre backs

I would also like to see a true front three but it still requires that players know when to come short and get involved with the play. Right now, Vydra just doesn't.

Out of interest what would you define as a 'true front three'?

We don't play a front 3 of strikers. We play Vydra up alone, flanked by Ince/ Anya or Russell a bit deeper, hence why playing one up front is easy to mark for the opposition as you say by two CB's.

To play Vydra up front and as a striking force we need additional striker, ideally in the same vein as Vydra. Add possibly Ince into the mix and play all 3 up front together, so none of the 3 play in a set position [center, left or right] let the 3 strikers read the game and play off each other, so when 1 of them makes a diagonal run this will open up space behind the defence as it pulls CB's all over the place [a nightmare for opponents to defend against] . 

We would need a ball playing midfielder in addition to another striker in January to make this work and also the ball to move so much more quickly than the last two seasons.

Playing one up front  [holding or off the shoulder type of striker] with the midfield not releasing the play quickly or sitting deep, actually causes us more problems.....

[Anon]

The Martin haters make me laugh. They're up there with flat eathers when it comes to the denial of evidence. They bitched and moaned for years about one of the leading scorers in the championship and assured us that the grass would be greener if only we shipped mardy, lazy, 20 goal average/season Martin out. Well, 7 goals from 13 games and lowest scorers in the league and we are now assured that it's not that they were completely, utterly, laughably, embarrassingly wrong, but that hold up players are a myth. Apparently because iconic teams like Arsenal and Barca, who can afford some of the most gifted technical footballers in the world, don't use a big striker it is a piece of cake for a relegation threatened club in the championship to do exactly the same.

[ollycutts1982]

I would happily ship Bent and Blackman out in Jan and get CM back, even Camara too. Fair to say he hasn't had much of a look in but that probably tells its own story.

[RoyMac5]

2 minutes ago, ollycutts1982 said:

I would happily ship Bent and Blackman out in Jan and get CM back, even Camara too. Fair to say he hasn't had much of a look in but that probably tells its own story.

TBH I'd happily ship out most of the midfield/forward squad bar Hughesy to get CM back!

[FindernRam]

We only need a holding player because our team is so static. IF we had proper movement off the ball and a sense of attacking purpose you need only to develop the little triangles and give and go. (Whatever happened to the old 1..2?).

Martin actually caused our players to slow up. Sure sometimes he held and laid off the ball but too often he either didn't control it or got knocked over which gave the ball to the opposition. So our players tended to hold back. This is also partly the reason our defence tends to play too deep.

[Mostyn6]

1 hour ago, Anon said:

we are now assured that it's not that they were completely, utterly, laughably, embarrassingly wrong, but that hold up players are a myth.

I started this debate, I believe needing hold up players is a myth, AND I love Chris Martin. So how do you figure that one out.

For the record though, I think Martin is technically the best striker of a ball we own, and would much rather the ball be played into his stride, facing the goal, 18 yards out, then have him chesting the ball down with his back to goal, whilst someone busts a gut to get into a supporting position, only to be out of breath when needing to shoot.

[cannable]

19 minutes ago, FindernRam said:

We only need a holding player because our team is so static. IF we had proper movement off the ball and a sense of attacking purpose you need only to develop the little triangles and give and go. (Whatever happened to the old 1..2?).

Martin actually caused our players to slow up. Sure sometimes he held and laid off the ball but too often he either didn't control it or got knocked over which gave the ball to the opposition. So our players tended to hold back. This is also partly the reason our defence tends to play too deep.

[Anon]

11 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

I started this debate, I believe needing hold up players is a myth, AND I love Chris Martin. So how do you figure that one out.

For the record though, I think Martin is technically the best striker of a ball we own, and would much rather the ball be played into his stride, facing the goal, 18 yards out, then have him chesting the ball down with his back to goal, whilst someone busts a gut to get into a supporting position, only to be out of breath when needing to shoot.

I know you started the topic, but it's not really aimed at you. There's plenty of the usual suspects floating about in the thread.

If you want a proper answer to your question then yes, I think you're being too simplistic and possibly overly optimistic. Very few teams outside of the very best in the world play without a striker capable of holding the ball up. The reason for this is that they require an outlet to facilitate ball retention high up the field. The very best teams don't need this as they are all able to register >60% possession regularly. There's a reason teams like Arsenal and Barce get so many plaudits and that is because playing this way is extremely difficult. It requires massive amounts of pace, coupled with exquisite close control and excellent movement off the ball. Even taking into account the lower quality of defenders I don't believe the players are available at this level to make such a system work.

[ramsbottom]

I think we can make it work with Vydra in the short term.  Can't be arsed reading the whole thread so I don't know if anyone pointed out the fact we still scored a hat full of goals in Schteve's 2nd season without Martin up front, we just couldn't keep them out at the other end with Thorne injured...

[brady1993]

17 hours ago, jono said:

I am not going to completely agree but I really like chewing the cud with you Brady ?

You're too kind @jono 

[Leicester Ram]

For the billionth time: WHY NOT HAVE BOTH YOU ******* IDIOTS?!

This isn't the referendum, it's not Vydra or Martin, get both of them at the club, have options.

Bet the same people who don't want Martin back will be moaning about not having a Plan B again if it goes tits up only having final touch strikers.

Don't understand why people wouldn't want to have a balanced squad because of their own personal vendetta's. Yeah, I think Vydra would be really effective if we got the 4-3-3 going, he makes the right runs and once the midfielders get used to his runs he'll get some decent service. Will score a lot of goals.

But I also KNOW FOR A FACT that Chris Martin plays well in a 4-3-3 with Steve McClaren's tactics, Craig Bryson and Will Hughes behind him, Tom Ince and Johnny Russell on the wings. It's a massively reassuring thought to know we have a top striker who's a guaranteed hit, who wouldn't want that at the club just because he moans a bit when he doesn't get the ball? He moaned all the time in 13/14 but the players still loved him and we had great team spirit. What's the drawback here, I can't see it?

THEY'RE BOTH GREAT STRIKERS.

WE OWN THEM BOTH.

GET BOTH OF THEM IN THE SQUAD, HAVE THE BEST ATTACK IN THE LEAGUE.

[Mostyn6]

2 minutes ago, Leicester Ram said:

For the billionth time: WHY NOT HAVE BOTH YOU ******* IDIOTS?!

This isn't the referendum, it's not Vydra or Martin, get both of them at the club, have options.

no, it's not even about Vydra Or Martin, it's about forwards and whether Derby need one capable of holding the ball up or not.

Take your strop elsewhere  

[cannable]

Probably worth noting that Martin has the attributes and in brief cameos in the role has actually shown that he can play fast strikers through as well as lay it off for somebody to run past him. We could have had them alternating betweeing Vydra playing off the shoulder and Martin looking to slide him through and Vydra making runs from slightly deep for Martin to lay him off.

Pearson really is a ******* nugget.

[Leicester Ram]

15 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

no, it's not even about Vydra Or Martin, it's about forwards and whether Derby need one capable of holding the ball up or not.

Take your strop elsewhere  

You're right!

That's why I said why not have both a hold up striker and a last touch striker.

Naturally my thought process went to which possible strikers in Derby's current situation that could apply to and I arrived, like many others in the thread have, at Martin and Vydra.

To suggest this thread isn't about Martin and Vydra is preposterous, I'm addressing the 10 foot elephant in the room instead of keeping the ridiculous pretence.

[Norman]

1 hour ago, Leicester Ram said:

You're right!

That's why I said why not have both a hold up striker and a last touch striker.

Naturally my thought process went to which possible strikers in Derby's current situation that could apply to and I arrived, like many others in the thread have, at Martin and Vydra.

To suggest this thread isn't about Martin and Vydra is preposterous, I'm addressing the 10 foot elephant in the room instead of keeping the ridiculous pretence.

Must be an African bush elephant, then - 10 foot is to high for Asian elephant.

[DEL]

On 20 October 2016 at 16:09, Robbie Ram said:

Pearce not a patch on Bucko as a leader. And no Ram is he.

Sorry RR but Pearce is WAY better than Bucko unfortunately.. 

[Leicester Ram]

1 hour ago, Norman said:

Must be an African bush elephant, then - 10 foot is to high for Asian elephant.

Yeah, African bush elephants are usually around 3.3 metres tall which is approx ten foot. 

[brady1993]

4 hours ago, Leicester Ram said:

You're right!

That's why I said why not have both a hold up striker and a last touch striker.

Naturally my thought process went to which possible strikers in Derby's current situation that could apply to and I arrived, like many others in the thread have, at Martin and Vydra.

To suggest this thread isn't about Martin and Vydra is preposterous, I'm addressing the 10 foot elephant in the room instead of keeping the ridiculous pretence.

Here's the thing, we actually had this under McClaren previously. It was just a tad more unconventional. Martin would act as the linkup player and a combination of Bryson/Ward/Russell would act as the 'last touch striker'.