Forward: do we need one to hold the ball up? or is it a myth?

[brady1993]

11 hours ago, toddy said:

We don't play a front 3 of strikers. We play Vydra up alone, flanked by Ince/ Anya or Russell a bit deeper, hence why playing one up front is easy to mark for the opposition as you say by two CB's.

You're perhaps right, and perhaps we need Ince and Anya need to tuck in to provide more support.

 

11 hours ago, toddy said:

To play Vydra up front and as a striking force we need additional striker, ideally in the same vein as Vydra. Add possibly Ince into the mix and play all 3 up front together, so none of the 3 play in a set position [center, left or right] let the 3 strikers read the game and play off each other, so when 1 of them makes a diagonal run this will open up space behind the defence as it pulls CB's all over the place [a nightmare for opponents to defend against] . 

I'd say both Wiemann and Russell are very similar players to Vydra in style. Personally Ince-Vydra-Russell would be my front three and I'd definitely have a lot of freedom of movement between them.

I agree that the ideal would be to have a front three where they can have fluidity to chop and change position at a whim ala Barcelona. However this requires three very intelligent players to make work, because they need to have astounding positional awareness for wherever they find themselves along the frontline  and need to know when to come short and when to run in behind because these roles aren't dictated to them also they need to where they need to fit into shape when the ball is lost. Personally I think at championship level it's difficult to replicate entirely.

We actually played  close to what you want with Martin, Russell and Ward. The difference is that there roles were a little more dictated to them. Martin was the dedicated linkup man with whilst Russell and Ward would make diagonal runs in behind. They all had freedom to move wherever there was space though, particularly Russell and Ward. The best example of this I can think of is the 2nd goal against Hull at home last year (albeit it's Russell and Ince). 

Russell picks the ball up in a central area, drifts all the way over to the left wing whilst the play is going on. In turn Ince ends up taken a left of central channel in the box. Martin maintains his position to occupy defenders and then when the play gets dangerous makes a run to the back post. 

Another decent example is Russell's goal against Huddersfield in the 13/14. If the diagonal run he makes from an outside left channel to the centre of the box isn't an example of 'true front three' behaviour then I don't know what is.

 

[brady1993]

11 hours ago, toddy said:

We would need a ball playing midfielder in addition to another striker in January to make this work and also the ball to move so much more quickly than the last two seasons.

Playing one up front  [holding or off the shoulder type of striker] with the midfield not releasing the play quickly or sitting deep, actually causes us more problems.....

I really don't get what you mean by needing another ball playing midfielder. Surely between Hughes, Butterfield and a hopefully soon to be fit Thorne we have enough in that department. 

I do agree with you that we probably need another striker because we are crying out for another good forward (particularly one with good link-up play.

I'd argue the plan isn't to play one upfront, and that we played a fully fledged front three when McClaren was here previously and that's what I expect us to go back too.

[Ninos]

5 hours ago, Leicester Ram said:

For the billionth time: WHY NOT HAVE BOTH YOU ******* IDIOTS?!

This isn't the referendum, it's not Vydra or Martin, get both of them at the club, have options.

Bet the same people who don't want Martin back will be moaning about not having a Plan B again if it goes tits up only having final touch strikers.

Don't understand why people wouldn't want to have a balanced squad because of their own personal vendetta's. Yeah, I think Vydra would be really effective if we got the 4-3-3 going, he makes the right runs and once the midfielders get used to his runs he'll get some decent service. Will score a lot of goals.

But I also KNOW FOR A FACT that Chris Martin plays well in a 4-3-3 with Steve McClaren's tactics, Craig Bryson and Will Hughes behind him, Tom Ince and Johnny Russell on the wings. It's a massively reassuring thought to know we have a top striker who's a guaranteed hit, who wouldn't want that at the club just because he moans a bit when he doesn't get the ball? He moaned all the time in 13/14 but the players still loved him and we had great team spirit. What's the drawback here, I can't see it?

THEY'RE BOTH GREAT STRIKERS.

WE OWN THEM BOTH.

GET BOTH OF THEM IN THE SQUAD, HAVE THE BEST ATTACK IN THE LEAGUE.

Neither are "great." Vydra has potential from what we've seen but he's unproven so far.  He hasn't been clinical. Abraham at Bristol is proving to be great in the division, as is Gayle at Newcastle. Great is as great does. Get some perspective. Best attack in the league ... good one ! Try ... worst attack. 

 

[brady1993]

9 hours ago, Mostyn6 said:

I started this debate, I believe needing hold up players is a myth, AND I love Chris Martin. So how do you figure that one out.

For the record though, I think Martin is technically the best striker of a ball we own, and would much rather the ball be played into his stride, facing the goal, 18 yards out, then have him chesting the ball down with his back to goal, whilst someone busts a gut to get into a supporting position, only to be out of breath when needing to shoot.

I don't think it so much we need a hold up player, but we need players in the front line who can drop short and link play otherwise there is zero connection between the midfield and forwards. 

If all the Derby forwards are doing are making runs in behind the opposition defence will drop to nullify the space whilst there midfield can still press ours because there is zero punishment for the opposition opening that gap up. In fact it works in their favour because it just further isolates the forwards, this means the midfield has to make wonder balls to get anywhere. 

Now I don't think it's anywhere near this bad currently (it was under the previous incumbent) but it could be a hell of a lot better. The one sole thing we are missing right now is the connection between midfield and forwards.