Burnley v Derby

[ilkleyram]

21 minutes ago, MuespachRam said:

Wait until you see the penalty on tv it is embarrassing. both nailed on penalties and they definitely didnt deserve a round of applause at the end of that.

Nailed on or not on TV, live and from behind the goal the first one looked a penalty, the second one dubious - it has to be deliberate handball and not handball.

But it wasn't a 4-1 game.  Two own goals (the second was no more to do with their clinical finishing than I'm the man in the moon; the first was clinical but by Keogh) and a much better all round performance was more than deserving of a round of applause, which those actually there gave them.  Birmingham was dispiriting; Reading only a little better.  This performance was not and I'm sorry that you don't think so.  You're wrong

[Gabriel]

16 minutes ago, philmycock said:

Good write up, though if anything I think we will take confidence in the performance rather than it denting confidence. Even though we still haven't hit the heights of the last 2 seasons yet, when we do we will be on a roll, it's never easy being a Derby fan, but I'd still rather watch us every week than Burnley or teams of their ilk.

Cheers. I think you'll put a run together between now and April, some favourable fixtures coming up, on paper at least. Can't see you falling away like last year.

[The Arch Deacon]

Returning Hull City fan here;

Q. Does Jacob Butterfield only ever score worldies???

While I'm on, what a difference a couple of weeks makes. Listened to DC and Boro fans kissin each other's arses on this forum after your defeat there. "Best team you've played all season"....... "Looks like we'll both go up" etc.. Ruling out Hull like also Rams! (Sorry, I meant also rans....freudian slip!) 

BIG MISTAKE! The Tigers are the best squad in the division. We've stuffed all the big teams barring Derby. And we've had our bad spell. As you and Boro are currently suffering. IMO, we'll go on and take the title. 2nd place depends on who can string a good winning spell together. If I were your boss, I'd have Butterfield ahead of 2 holding mids and running things. Forget out and out wingers, you don't have the striker to finish the cross. You need to over-run midfield and get closer together, defensively and offensively. And you need sheer pace in the CF position, as proven by Burnley tonight. I rate your CB's but Gray made them look very Sunday league. Probably Ince or even Camara who looked quick when he came on. The days of a beefy CF playing with his back to goal just there to off-load belongs in the 70's. Things have moved on fella's. There's no substitute for pace. (that said Martin had one of his better games by his standards!)

That's it from me! But WTF do I know!.....other than......we are top o' the league, I said we are top o' the league!......etc, etc!

[RadioactiveWaste]

had that game finished the 1-1 it probably deserved on balance, they wouldn't be this wrist endangering vibe.

I'd say a lot of the problems of recent games looked to be getting better, not cured by any means, but a lot moved in the right direction.

the goals Burnley got were fortunate.

had that performance and result come off the back of OK form we'd give it what it deserved - not our night - and move on.

 

I'd add to that there were signs of inventiveness that didn't come off as well tonight - give it a few games and they'll start finding each other again.

Also, pressure off cup match next that the players, fans and whole club can enjoy.

Far from down tonight.

Looking forwards:

back 4 are our fist choice. goals is down to fitness.

for me, stick with 4-3-3 and drop bradley - play thorne and butters with either bryson and martin or hendrick and someone else (e.g. Blackman).

Ince keeps his place - he's not doing bad just not quite happening at present.

Camara or JR on the other side.

 

And a bit of belief please.

[Bris Vegas]

7 minutes ago, The Arch Deacon said:

Returning Hull City fan here;

Q. Does Jacob Butterfield only ever score worldies???

While I'm on, what a difference a couple of weeks makes. Listened to DC and Boro fans kissin each other's arses on this forum after your defeat there. "Best team you've played all season"....... "Looks like we'll both go up" etc.. Ruling out Hull like also Rams! (Sorry, I meant also rans....freudian slip!) 

BIG MISTAKE! The Tigers are the best squad in the division. We've stuffed all the big teams barring Derby. And we've had our bad spell. As you and Boro are currently suffering. IMO, we'll go on and take the title. 2nd place depends on who can string a good winning spell together. If I were your boss, I'd have Butterfield ahead of 2 holding mids and running things. Forget out and out wingers, you don't have the striker to finish the cross. You need to over-run midfield and get closer together, defensively and offensively. And you need sheer pace in the CF position, as proven by Burnley tonight. I rate your CB's but Gray made them look very Sunday league. Probably Ince or even Camara who looked quick when he came on. The days of a beefy CF playing with his back to goal just there to off-load belongs in the 70's. Things have moved on fella's. There's no substitute for pace. (that said Martin had one of his better games by his standards!)

That's it from me! But WTF do I know!.....other than......we are top o' the league, I said we are top o' the league!......etc, etc!

Bournemouth played with Yann Kermorgant uptop last season, Glenn Murray was absolutely key to Crystal Palace's revival last season. I don't believe CFs have to be pacey players.

I have no problem with Burnley or Hull going up, other than the simple fact you will offer the Premier League absolutely nothing in terms of excitement. You'll both come back down, playing survival percentage football.

Not saying Derby would feature any better. But at least Boro might spend their way into doing something in the top flight, whereas others like Brighton or Sheff Wed would be a bit fresh.

Burnley and Hull. I'd be licking my lips as a Bournemouth/Norwich fan if you two went up.

[Ziga Zaga10]

16 minutes ago, The Arch Deacon said:

Returning Hull City fan here;

Q. Does Jacob Butterfield only ever score worldies???

While I'm on, what a difference a couple of weeks makes. Listened to DC and Boro fans kissin each other's arses on this forum after your defeat there. "Best team you've played all season"....... "Looks like we'll both go up" etc.. Ruling out Hull like also Rams! (Sorry, I meant also rans....freudian slip!) 

BIG MISTAKE! The Tigers are the best squad in the division. We've stuffed all the big teams barring Derby. And we've had our bad spell. As you and Boro are currently suffering. IMO, we'll go on and take the title. 2nd place depends on who can string a good winning spell together. If I were your boss, I'd have Butterfield ahead of 2 holding mids and running things. Forget out and out wingers, you don't have the striker to finish the cross. You need to over-run midfield and get closer together, defensively and offensively. And you need sheer pace in the CF position, as proven by Burnley tonight. I rate your CB's but Gray made them look very Sunday league. Probably Ince or even Camara who looked quick when he came on. The days of a beefy CF playing with his back to goal just there to off-load belongs in the 70's. Things have moved on fella's. There's no substitute for pace. (that said Martin had one of his better games by his standards!)

That's it from me! But WTF do I know!.....other than......we are top o' the league, I said we are top o' the league!......etc, etc!

Your really Steve Bruce ain't yer? :-)

 

[RadioactiveWaste]

A lot of teams claim to have the best squad in the league. Even some Wednesday fans claim it.

Hull, Boro and us are probably much of a muchness.

Boro been together a while and it shows, Hull a lot of the PL (relegation, not forget) squad there and Derby kind of in transition from the Clough assembled McClaren managed side to something else. The rest comes down to form. Boro dipped, Hull have recovered, we've had some flashbacks to last season but I fancy us to recover pretty soon.

 

[RadioactiveWaste]

In other news:

His unbearableness himself quoted from the BBC website:

" I'm delighted because now we've started scoring from all over the pitch and that does make a difference. "

the spot, an own goal and massive deflection, right ho.

Dyche is an unspeakable rude word.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/35340305

[The Arch Deacon]

11 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

Bournemouth played with Yann Kermorgant uptop last season, Glenn Murray was absolutely key to Crystal Palace's revival last season. I don't believe CFs have to be pacey players.

I have no problem with Burnley or Hull going up, other than the simple fact you will offer the Premier League absolutely nothing in terms of excitement. You'll both come back down, playing survival percentage football.

Not saying Derby would feature any better. But at least Boro might spend their way into doing something in the top flight, whereas others like Brighton or Sheff Wed would be a bit fresh.

Burnley and Hull. I'd be licking my lips as a Bournemouth/Norwich fan if you two went up.

Take your point BV and I'm feeling your pain whilst suspecting a tiny amount of green eyed envy?

But for every example you want to give me of the old style hold up striker I'll give you 10 where out and out pace is the difference. Including Hull, inc. Burnley (who just stuffed you for exactly that reason) and also including the current PL leaders. I could go on. If you and your boss want to go on on ignoring the fact that Martin is your weakest link then that attitude will see you missing out on promotion. End of!

As for adding nothing to the PL!!!! That sounds like a jealous fan deprived of top flight football for a while. Bris, you've gotta get there in the first place to find out if you've got what it takes to stick around. Or are you suggesting we should stand aside and give someone else a chance? For f***s sake, this is the Championship, not the village under 11's run by the local Sunday school teacher! And I've seen a fair bit of Derby this season with your regular Sky appearances plus going to your game at Boro to know that my season ticket is way better value than yours.

And I you talking about the same Bournemouth and Norwich that are sat just above the relegation places in the PL as we speak? Forget lip lickin, but they (and you) can kiss my slightly furry arse as we pass them on the way up!

No offence BV, just Bants!

[The Arch Deacon]

23 minutes ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

A lot of teams claim to have the best squad in the league. Even some Wednesday fans claim it.

Hull, Boro and us are probably much of a muchness.

Boro been together a while and it shows, Hull a lot of the PL (relegation, not forget) squad there and Derby kind of in transition from the Clough assembled McClaren managed side to something else. The rest comes down to form. Boro dipped, Hull have recovered, we've had some flashbacks to last season but I fancy us to recover pretty soon.

 

Agreed Radio, I've said from the start it'll be Hull and Derby for the auto's. I have money riding on it. Time will tell. I still say if Derby found the right formation and all played to full potential, they would be comfortable for a top 2 place. 

[Todd Is God]

What did we learn?

For me this was a revealing game;

1. The team we started with is pretty much our best team (bar one)

2. Blackman is a poor signing - he couldn't be arsed to play his role in the second half. I would stick him in the reserves and promote Weimann.

3. Camara isn't tready - he's keen but needs time to adapt.

4. Clement is struggling. He needs to raise morale and boost players because we all know we have a good team in there somewhere. Can he do this? I doubt it - he needs a season or two.

5. Martin is our best forward. He's intelligent but he needs Hughes / Butterfield / Bryson.   Ince / Blackman is not good enough.

 

[Reithe glas]

5 hours ago, Alpha said:

He's not a target man. That's how we're using him. He needs people going past him, he needs everyone much tighter to him.

He's out of form but even if he finds form he won't match his previous two seasons goal tally purely because he's not a player that has individual moments on a regular basis. Statistically he's not really any worse in terms of winning the ball or passing the ball. 

If he's not a target man what is he? He's a static centre forward with poor pace and mobility who can only play one way, ball played up to him with his back to goal. Isn't that the definition of a target man? Even if one accepts that our current style of play doesn't suit him I still think he could contribute more. On tonight's game I felt that despite all our possession we didn't really create much (wonder goal aside). Can't help wondering how that game would have finished if we had Gray and they had Martin. Harsh I know but still.

[Leicester Ram]

3 hours ago, Ambitious said:

This game kind of embodies our season; very good first half, complete capitulation in the second. 

I'm genuinely worried that we won't only not finish in the top 6, but the top half. Confidence is completely shot. 

I can't help but think Clement's days are numbered. Although, you can say that about almost any manager. 

Expect more of you.

[top 6 finish]

For the 3rd time of askin would we accept 6th if it was offered?

5 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

I wrote in on Twitter, and as my bio says Sports Writer, perhaps it was from me.

By the way for a bit of light entertainment after the gloom,and there is a prize on

offer,the question is:- what sport does he write about? So far we have Angling, darts

Horsey stuff, tiddlywinks (honestly) bowls or old mans marbles. Obviously not football.

[Jourdan]

I like Clement very much. But let's be brutally honest here, he is going to be the fall guy if we don't get promoted this season.

The Clement and Morris vision doesn't feel like a slow burner to me. We were a side that just needed some finishing touches, some gloss applied. Nothing too radical. Instead, we have been backed heavily by the new owner who has invested in new players in an attempt to accelerate our progress and the new head coach has shaken things up in every other respect. And not necessarily for the best.

I don't believe for one minute that we have spent £25 million to be pretenders. Promotion is the goal and if we achieve it, no-one will bat an eyelid. But if we get it wrong, which is a very real prospect at the moment, questions have to be asked. Is spending £25 million in the Championship to be play-offs at best an excusable outcome?

When results are going your way, the way the team plays can be masked over. When they are not, this will be heavily scrutinised and in difficult times, that is what everyone will pour over. Are we playing attacking football? Are we playing entertaining football? Are there signs for encouragement? In general, the football hasn't been entertaining, the performances haven't been encouraging and now the results are starting to become unpalatable. And if it continues, Clement faces a battle to keep everyone on side and buying into the club's new vision because it has been a huge shift from previous regimes. And again, not necessarily for the best.

For me, it's times like this where Clement's lack of genuine managerial experience goes against him. He is an accomplished coach and his CV is impressive as any, but he isn't battle-tested. When you work for big clubs like Chelsea, PSG and Real Madrid, the greatest adversity you face is running out of foie gras.

If one of these clubs were to go five games without a win, the perspective would be entirely different. These are clubs that are successful, accustomed to winning and more often than not have a massive competitive edge. While five games without a win can be a sackable offence at such clubs, it's also fair to say when you are dealing with an abundance of world class players, you always feel there is a way out and some light at the end of the tunnel. You tend to trust in these players and back them to respond and their quality to tell. After all, winning eight out of the next 10 games or going on an unbeaten run of 15 games would surprise no-one. Can you say the same about Derby?

Coaching at the very highest level is a world away from the Championship and it's difficult to call on your past experience when you have nothing that is comparable to the current mood and current predicament at the club. We simply don't have the luxury of being so much better than everyone else that we can be safe in the knowledge that it couldn't possibly get any worse. It can and with our comfortable position in the top six diminishing game by game, it is quite plausible that it will.

Is Clement prepared in the event of further setbacks? Can he steer us out of choppy waters? Does he know what it takes? It is a big worry for me that Clement might look the part when things are going swimmingly as he is accustomed to but may be found wanting when he needs to actualise a determined response from his players.

We need a win against Preston.

[Alph]

3 hours ago, Duracell said:

It is really hard to stay positive amidst the frustration of the fact that we have spent a lot of money, and all we have to show for it is a more muddled squad with no obvious starting XI or line-up. If we were re-building then that would be less concerning, but I thought we were going for broke?

I really thought this summer was a case of finding cover or competition to Martin and Thorne. We've signed totally different players to them, and when they're unfit or out of form, it's all gone a bit 14/15 again. We've lost Eustace and Omar so we've actually gone backwards in terms of options at CDM.

Some encouraging signs tonight, but something does seem awry in that we've gone from having the best defence in the league to what looked like the kind of performance you'd expect at the end of last season. That we didn't solve the Thorne/Martin conundrum seemed acceptable because Clement gave us organisation and defensive shape in a way the previous manager couldn't or wouldn't.

That, for whatever reason, has vanished in recent games, but let's keep some perspective here - this is a run of 4 games. It's not 2 wins in 13. Am I happy? No. Is it okay? Not at all. Can we still win the league?  Things have to change, but of course we can. Stupid to suggest otherwise. 46 games decide who goes up, and even then, we might get another shot with a further three games to play.

It seems in some quarters there's no appetite to discuss a 4-1 defeat without having accusations thrown at you for being a disloyal supporter for suggesting something might be wrong. Not everyone who is unhappy tonight is calling for heads or for players to be sold - and it's a discussion forum anyway. A negative comment on a forum in the heat of the moment is NOT the same thing as booing or shouting abuse at the players. The players can't hear praise or criticism on this forum, no matter how furiously you  type.

The nature of last season's collapse has probably made us too eager to press the panic button in a dramatic - but short - drop in form. Nevertheless, when you watch images of Shackell and Keogh arguing with  and pointing at each other live on television, it's difficult to escape the conclusion that we have lost something in that team that we once had in abundance.

Bloody good post!

[True Ram]

sorry lads I think you will find we have turned the corner now a lot better performance tonight just a couple of mistakes tonight at least they kept going for goal right up to the final whistle

[California Ram.]

Woke up feeling really positive - despite the goals that was a massively better performance from the last 4. If we'd ended up 1-1, we'd have said we should have won. Butterfield and Thorne were huge last night, there were even glimpses of why we'd bought Camara and Blackman. Carson and Bryson back on the pitch. Would love to see Camara start against Man U (and Buxton given a run so that Keogh can rest his nose) 

[Ninos]

The positives:

Burnley were boys against Derby men in the first half. We won the ball with ease, knocked it around, and basically dictated matters - and that really didn't stop to the final whistle. We made them look total rubbish. That and the performance of Bryson in his cameo and George Thorne were the positives for me and Butterfield in parts. I like the fact that Thorne and Bryson (for the short time he was on) never give the ball away cheaply (and if Thorne does he busts his Arse and gets it back). We beat ourselves on the night, actually we thrashed ourselves. 

The negatives: 

we have the ability to win balls and spray it about but but Too many of our players lose the final ball and the defenders too often hoof it constantly because there's no central midfielders to pass to. The other major problem is the anemic attack: where we neither create good chances nor execute the chances we do make. We don't have a centre forward that does anything good at this point : he can't beat a defender he can't head the ball he has no pace or hustle and his passes aren't that good currently. He did pop up for the pass that led to the butterfield belter admitted, and hes played worse, but he doesn't fit Clements defence-first system. Martin doesn't worry defenders and neither does Blackman who seems far more menacing but has no final product. 

The one game in recent memory where we tore the other team apart was V Bristol City (the same team that just beat Boro 1-0) where Bent played in front of Ince. yes it was an experiment and Bent never scored but it made us look lethal up front and our passing was incisive and clever. Bent and PC need to make friends and he should play up top v United - in front of Ince. 

And we clearly need a new Captain out there - No more of the leaderless Baird Martin warnock merrygoround - hes young but Thorne it should be. 

[Reithe glas]

Goals dictate games. If you can't create chances and score goals when you're bossing possession the opposing team gain confidence and more often than not will score. Unfortunately Burnley got all the luck and did it four times, but if our attack had any creativity or penetration we would have been one or two up before they scored and we could have closed the game out like we did against Hull.