VulcanRam

1 minute ago, angieram said:

Interesting post regarding the sending off. Can I ask, as there were three defenders behind Wildsmith at that point, how is it an empty net? Wildsmith wasn't last man, so is there a different rule for goalkeepers? Because if that had been an outfield player, he wasn't last man and wouldn't have been sent off. It would have been a yellow. My husband thinks it may be a different rule for goalkeepers, could you clarify? 

And on  waiting to see if the player had scored first before awarding the free kick - 

1. He didn't do that for our first goal, even though there was a much shorter time distance, he gave the penalty immediately. 

2. If a referee allows the advantage and it doesn’t work, is it then okay to give a second opportunity to score through the free kick? Isn't that unfair? 

1) There isn't a separate rule for goalkeepers - deliberate handball for a DOGSO outside the area is a straight red whoever does it, same as a pull, foul tackle or other offence - but the "last man" thing is a misnomer. The last man might technically be standing 10 yards away with no chance of getting to the attacker. It's about whether at that exact moment there is an obvious goalscoring opportunity from the angle of the striker. Even if a defender is on the line it remains an obviously goalscoring opportunity, opportunity here being key.

Referees are told to take a snapshot of that exact moment which helps as normally half a second after the offence the picture has changed (defenders getting back etc). So at that exact moment he sees (rightly or wrongly) the ball hitting Wildsmith's hand he freeze frames in his own mind the picture. There may be defenders around but if they are not blocking the line of strike of the attacker at that moment then yes it is an obvious goalscoring opportunity. It's a judgement call and we can all have different judgements.

1) Indeed he didn't, and he should have. I think that's on his mind with the Wildsmith incident, hence he waits. If the Bolton striker scores on that follow up shot and he has already blown he's made a similar error to our penalty.

2) Referees are allowed a few seconds (there is no definitive timescale provided, might be one second, might be five) to see whether an advantage is actually an advantage. It's a good rule and actually - on the proviso that there was a handball from Wildsmith - the referee has in this instance done the right thing. He's blown for the foul as soon as the follow up shot hasn't gone in.  Take our penalty - say that he's seen the peno but it looks like we're going to score as we did, but in another scenario we somehow missed that chance - there is no advantage to us playing on so we should have the penalty. If he allows that to play out and NOT give the penalty we'd all be howling as to why not! If he blows straight away as he did and we score, we're all howling that he didn't let play unfold for a second! Damned if you do, damned if you don't!

Interestingly though, looking at the highlights, you'd expect all the Bolton players to go up when it his Wildsmith's hand, but there was no appeal at all from the players. Maybe in the moment they were concentrating on scoring, but normally you'd get an appeal.

5 minutes ago, angieram said:

It doesn't work like that. You can't give what you didn't see. If he didn't see it, he shouldn't have given it. 

 

You're right, so presumably he did see it. You could easily argue from the video above that it's hit his thumb. Wildsmith was pointing to his chest and it doesn't appear to go anywhere near his chest. I have no idea, you just have to trust the officials make an honest decision. Much like players and managers, sometimes those decisions, with the speed of the game and in that exact moment, are wrong. We can all benefit from hindsight and video. 

Well I enjoyed the day out at Bolton (well, a few miles away from Bolton), my first visit to that stadium. Good stadium, setup, home fans were very vocal. Seemed quiet in the away end. Lots of bars and restaurants in the area.

Positives from the game were that I thought we defended really well when under the cosh for long periods, and it took a fluke goal to beat us. Defenders were solid and Vickers made what looked like from the other end a couple of very good saves. I heard some criticism on the radio about players not putting a shift in - from my angle they all gave it 100%. Forsyth and Nelson had good games. Bradley did well other than his ricket. Thought Hourihane had a decent enough game. Fornah looked terrible first half out of position but much better when he was moved back. This is, of course, all in the context of the match and how were set up, if indeed we were set up in any particular way.

I was impressed with how Evatt set Bolton up, they played good football. They lacked a killer edge and looked a little ropey at the back on the odd occasion we tested them, which doesn't quite put them in the Plymouth/Ipswich bracket from last season, but they're a good side who will be up there. 

Referee: As some of you know I ref at county league level so may (or may not) be able to offer some insight. He's got the first big decision of the game wrong - he's decided Elder is fouled but given where Derby are should have waited a couple of seconds and given the goal. He's blown far too early and luckily we scored the penalty.

I think that has clearly influenced the way he managed the Wildsmith incident as this time instead of blowing up as soon as he saw the handball he has  waited to see if the Bolton players scores into an empty net. As soon as he doesn't, he blows for the foul. Having indicated a foul, he has made up his mind and the red can come out there as it's deliberate handball stopping an obvious goalscoring opportunity (DOGSO). Given that it's such a big decision, he has a word with his assistant, and he'll be asking him whether he saw anything that would change his mind. If, as it turned out, the assistant couldn't say one way or the other, the ref sticks with his decision. It was actually good refereeing.

Their penalty. Only VAR could say whether it was in or out of the box. We don't have VAR and it looked to me and everyone around me that it was a penalty, so it's hard to criticise too much. 

Derby penalty appeals in the second half: The "handball" when the player is falling over and the ball hits his hand is not handball. The rules clearly state that if a player is putting an arm out to stabilise himself and its not deliberate, then it's not handball. The potential penalty when NML tangles with their number 5 was 50/50 - it was both players fighting for the ball but the defender did have his arm at neck height on NML so maybe. But I felt the one on Bradley was an absolute stonewall. Defender not looking at the ball as it comes across and just hauls him to the ground. It was a far more blatant foul than the one we got the peno for. So poor refereeing. 

Derby - tactically shambolic. No notable shape or patters of play. Players looked like they weren't sure who was meant to be where. I get why Warne put Bradley on ahead of Cash. I was frustrated second half as we were on the ropes and both Warne and Barker were sitting down and we had no-one standing and organising/encouraging etc. Putting JJ on at the end and not putting him through the middle up against their lumbering number 5, who was always the last man in a 3 and had already been booked, was criminal.

There is a clear pattern emerging this season against teams that play football and I'm afraid there was nothing in that game, against one of the promotion front runners, that convinced me Warne is up to the task. Equally, he is being hamstrung by injuries and yesterday we didn't get the rub of the green, although we certainly could have helped ourselves with some organisation, composure and some time spent in possession of the football. Warne isn't going to suddenly change his mantra, we can only hope though it is more effective when we have a fully fit squad, if that ever happens.   

Sorry, that was a much longer post that I'd anticipated!

On 30/08/2023 at 12:00, Ambitious said:

Depends what you mean by waste of time, football is the only sport where the better team on the day can often not get the result their performance deserves.

That surely depends on how you define "better". More shots? More shots on target? More possession? Better pass rate? There's no universal definition of "better" and everyone will have their own ideas, so it's an impossible thing to prove.

A team that defends solidly for 89 minutes and then scores with their only shot to win 1-0 could be deemed the better team because tactically their game plan was superior to the opposition's and they executed it better than their opposition; at the same time the losing team could be deemed better because they had all the attacking play and possession. 

Plenty of other sports have similar conversations, notably boxing, where barely a week goes by without the "better" fighter losing.

Anyway, laptop off, I'm hitting the road north to Bolton! UTR!!

Just now, Andicis said:

I imagine that is as he would want to sign a precontract either here or somewhere else for next season with his contract expiring.

Absolutely, one of those though that if he does really well for us in the first part of the season, as we hope he will, we may not get the benefit of his services in the second half of the season. 

good signing, but only on loan only til January, which is never ideal. 

11 minutes ago, Ambitious said:

They’re two players absolutely nothing alike, at all. TJJ will have the best first touch in the team, Osula has the worst (for one).

James Collins: Hold my beer. 

15 hours ago, angieram said:

No, dearest tickets so far, and least drop in price for the concessions. 

Peterborough is £27 (£28 with fee) but only in main stand and their concession prices are much lower for younger age groups.

Thanks Angie, I bought them anyway!

I haven't been to an away league game for two seasons for one reason or another, but plan to go to Bolton.

£31 adult for bolton, plus £20 for a 16 year old.  

Actually it's £32 and £21 once you've added on the cost of doing what the club want you to do, buy online. 

For a league one game. Nuts.

Is this usual in this league? 

Bradley will come good, he’s got pedigree and is more than good enough to play at this level. It may just take time to settle down a bit. 

Far too much panicking going on here.

10 minutes ago, Ram a lamb a ding dong said:

1 game played

Could have easily won by 2 clear goals but for 2 absolute shockers

Still 3 weeks of window open to get some pace in

An opening day defeat should serve us better than a 5-0 win as it will temper expectations. 

We have had a fair bit of turnover during the summer and it's never going to gel straight away.

Stop your whining...

Correct, only one game played, we played well enough but on the basis that we only scored one goal I'm not sure how we could have "easily won by two clear goals"? 

It's looking increasingly likely that we won't get pace in. The market is absolutely flat. Even PL teams don't seem to be letting youngsters go out on loan. Teams who have relied heavily on loans in the past might struggle this year.

Your point that you'd rather lose than win 5-0 is completely lost on me. I'll take the 5-0 win thanks. I'm sure the topic among Barnsley fans having beaten Port Vale 7-0 wasn't "I wish we'd lost".

It clearly hasn't gelled straight away but I'm not worried. We played well enough in patches on Saturday to suggest we could have a good season. You wouldn't expect the defence to be collectively that poor again this season.

People have gone over the top, but also I've seen some very valid constructive criticism that you clearly see as whining. 

29 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

I will happily do a pic if Warne gets us promoted. My very first profile pic was of me after losing the playoff final v QPR. 

We have a good squad this season; a couple more signings should do the trick, but can Warne make them properly tick? Time will tell.

Don’t feel guilt keeping the Derby line going with your boys. Supporting Derby is character building. Great too that you have mutual interests. That said, I drew a line with my mum about going to Daniel O’Donnell concerts.

Yeah, I can understand why she didn't want to go. 

Given where we are and struggling to bring people in, and looking at our attacking against Wigan, this is a no brainer.

First game I've watched. Given the massive hype this is getting in the media, I was expecting a lot better quality, not League 1 or 2 standard football.

That final penalty was a belter though. You'll not see a better one than that anywhere this season. 

10 hours ago, jameso said:

Although I’m not convinced we do it very well. Other teams have properly pressed us in League 1. Barnsley away springs to mind.

The amount of times, after they realised what was going on, Sheff Utd and then Wigan played their way around it suggests we're not great at it. 

23 minutes ago, angieram said:

Did you hear him talking about how the new coaching rules affected him yesterday? Said he wasn't allowed to step forward to discuss tactics with Richie Barker and felt uncomfortable doing it further back within earshot of the subs.

An unintended consequence of the changes designed to protect the fourth official. 

Warne needs to cut out the peripherals that impact on him , easier said than done if you're that type of person. I am one myself. Makes you lose focus.

I find that rather a lame and pathetic excuse. If he's too nice to risk upsetting the subs he's in the wrong job. 

Wildsmith 6 - an extra point given for his excellent one on one save, and removed for his error for their winning goal

35Nelson 5 - looked shaky and a bit ponderous

5Bradley 5 - same as Nelson

6Cashin - 5 - same as Nelson and Bradley

14Washington - 5 didn't make an impact

23Ward - 6.5 nothing much first half, much better second half

2Wilson - 6 came on an added some excitement 

12Smith - 7 though on the whole he was our most effective player on the day 

8Bird - 5 Thought he played well first half, totally anonymous second

4Hourihane - 5 We need more, pedestrian for the last half hour 

3Forsyth - 6.5 Great goal, should have had a second. 

Elder - 6 not really any time to make an impact 

9Collins - 5 Some decent work outside the box, but wins nothing in it

11Méndez-Laing 6 in and out of the game, looked most likely to produce something

Thompson - 6 He came on. And according to the rules, when he steps on the pitch he's a six, so there we go.

I’m not sure today was as calamitous as some are making out; there were periods of the game where we moved the ball well and after we scored it looked like we were the only team who would go on to win it. Forsyth’s miss after his goal was one of those marginal pivotal moments that can change games as at 2-1 up I’d like to think we’d go on to win.

However, there were also some genuine concerns. Defensively we looked very uncertain, while predictably up front there was no danger. Collins did some decent work 30 yards out but in the box he just doesn’t look a threat, very flat footed and stationary, easy to get ahead or mark.

Ward barely got over the half way line in the first half, but was much better second. Yet we don’t play through the middle so if our only tactic is to give it to the wing back then it’s not going to be that hard to play against us. Likewise it was just cross, cross, cross, and vast majority were easily dealt with. Tactically, we don’t look very sophisticated. 

17 hours ago, Ambitious said:

I really like the look of Radcliffe, just seems to have something (to my eye), but definitely would like to see us get a centre midfielder on loan. It’s a position where a lot of teams are deep and you can get yourself a very good player on loan. Harvey White was a good footballer, but just seemed to s*** the bed at critical times - in terms of ability though he definitely had no problem playing at this level. Spurs have Alfie Devine who is 19 tomorrow and will no doubt be going out on loan. A very highly rated young player, a decent all round midfielder who is a physical player. Championship clubs will probably be interested but he’s a player, without even looking too much into it, who we could offer a platform for as a first step into football.

And that's the problem, I'm not sure the middle of midfield in League 1 is anywhere a young player who's grown up at a PL club and never been tackled in his life should be learning his trade. White couldn't manage it, and it had nothing to do with his football ability. It took Dobbin over half a season to come good and get used to being kicked about. 

It's a big position, and I think I'd just prefer someone who has played more league football than a kid out of the reserves or youth setup who's never faced life in the middle of chaos and carnage.

15 minutes ago, RodleyRam said:

I'm a little surprised by this to be honest, more so the statement that Max is keen to move. I'm not sure I buy that, he seems far more at home here than most other players, lots of history and a genuine connection with the manager at a critical time in his career.  I would expect him to buy into the season ahead with a view to being a dominant force.

I would be gutted to see him go. Knight I have come to terms with but Bird is lovely to watch and I think could be a surprise package next season in terms of his ability to influence games.

Still, every player has a price. If he goes and we can replace him and strengthen in a couple of positions then it is what it is!

If you offer any footballer the chance of playing at a higher level for more wages, he'd be mad not to take it. Bird didn't have a great season last season, and no-one knows how he will get on this season. Football's an opportunistic game, you have to take a decent offer if it comes your way as you don't know when another might come along.

Also, and I speculate, he might prefer Liam's brand of possession-based, passing football to Warne's style, whatever that might be as I still don't really know. 

1 hour ago, EnigmaRam said:

I guess it all depends on the fee, and if we can reinvest it. Something we didn’t do with Bielik or Knight money. 
 

Even if he didn’t sign a contract this year he still could next year or we would get compensation. 
 

I don’t like the fact we’re selling our youngsters and bringing in older players with no resale value. It’s not a good business model. Although if our Browns and Robinsons in the academy are seen as players that can step up then that may be where our future capital comes from.

Time will tell

On the other hand, it is a good business model if it results in us getting promoted, as the money on offer in the Championship compared to what we get for selling the likes of Bird or Knight will be considerably more.

We're in League 1, we're not going to get millions for players unless they are a striker (always worth more) who is young and has just banged in a hatful the previous season. I don't even know what we would get for Bird as we only got around £1.7m (if you believe reports) for Knight, who is a proven international. Say we get the same for Bird, we will get far more in TV and sponsorship from being back in the Championship than £3.4 million. 

10 hours ago, Allen said:

For what it’s worth, here’s my predictions on league goals each member of the current squad will get

Ward 6

Wilson 3

Elder 1

Fossy 1

Nelson 2

Bradley 3

Smith 1

Bird 6

Hourihane 7

Sibs 8

Thommo 2

NML 8

Washington 14

Collo 18

Barks 4 

Hope I haven’t forgotten anyone. That’s a total of 84 which is 17 more than last season and without any new arrivals, which I don’t think will be the case.

I also expect us to concede less than last season.

Think we’re in for a good season. COIYR.

3 hours ago, angieram said:

Cash?

Wildsmith? 

4 hours ago, i-Ram said:

I am clearly a bit underwhelmed compared to the majority on here, even though I remain confident the Club will get promoted this season.

Warne seems to have used most of his budget on solid, dependable Lower Champ/upper L1 performers. Promotion by grind, work rate and small % gains, appears to be the MO which shouldn’t really surprise us given his career.

Disappointing that as yet we haven’t really picked up any young and up and coming players from L1 or L2 - nor sure we have looked there -  the only youngster being Kane who has a lot to prove after his time at Cardiff. I was expecting a few more 24-29 year olds, and I wasn’t expecting James Collins to be our first choice No.9 at the start of the season. I quite like Waghorn, but it’s not ideal is it, and even Warne isn’t really convinced either, still taking a look. Otherwise the options look like Sharp or Rhodes, aging well paid goal poachers. They will put away their share of the scraps of course, but both seem like an end to a means.

So, not an exciting evolution for me, nor does it given me much confidence that there is any plan beyond promotion. This squad would almost certainly be deep in a Championship relegation battle this season.

 

 

From the look of pre-season it's a top 6 squad I'd like to think. It might all hinge on what loans we get in once the PL teams release their squads. We need better than Dobbin and Osula, but pace in the front line is a must. 

I don't think I've ever despised or hated anyone, let alone a football player that's represented my club as part of his job.