Academy Players Ready to Step Up

[Dartmouth Ram]

Now that it’s becoming apparent that there isn’t as much in the transfer kitty as we’d all hoped, it asks the question whether we have anyone in our Academy at the moment who could make the step up to the First Team?

Is Tony Weston or Dajaune Brown the out-and-out Number 9 we so desperately need? Granted Brown’s been loaned to Gateshead but we do have the option to recall him after 28 days.

Would Adebayo Fapetu be that Ball-Winning Midfielder that we hoped Fornah would be? Dare I also mention that we also have a certain Bradley Johnson as an overage Academy Player who could do that role…

Are Carlos Richards or Ben Radcliffe an option out wide or are they either not ready or not good enough?

Personally, I would much rather us take a chance on our Academy Lads that have another over 30’s lunk on a bloated salary with little or no resale value. We need players at this stage of the season who are hungry and want to fight for the shirt which seems to be missing at the moment.

For me that would be Weston & Fapetu both of which have looked good in cup games, definitely worth a gamble if we can’t get the players we want.

Be interesting to know everyone else’s thoughts

[OoooMarkWright]

I don’t know. Warne probably doesn’t either as he barely gave any of our academy lads a chance in the EFL Trophy. A big opportunity missed to check if these players are ready in a non pressure situation.

[RoyMac5]

As GoC said he chose to play TJJ wide last night and put NML through the middle, what chance would our Academy youngsters have?

[Ghost of Clough]

DRobinson's the only player who I think is ready for regular football at this level (lower end L1 level). I would trust his ability to play (and start) the odd game for us at this end of the table. He isn't yet ready for several starts. However, infrequent appearances throughtout the rest of the season would be enough to earn him a loan move for next season. He needs to improve his end product, but otherwise he's another safe and reliable player on the ball.

DBrown is next in the pecking order. He too would be good enough for seeing games out and the rare start. His level (in my opinion) is L2. However, the benefit of a National League loan is our ability to recall him in an emergency whilst a L2 loan would be fixed until the season has ended. The exposure to men's football will be a big boost from him, as I think it could be the difference between him mentally beign ready to play regularly for us next season.

Radcliffe and Weston have shown at other clubs that they are capable at handling themselves in men's football. Radcliffe played in the National League North last season, so a step up this season would have been a fair assupmption - he's been injured since October. Weston played infrequiently in the Scottish Championship last season for Partick and Cove Rangers. He's National League North or even National League level.

Oduroh, who spent the first half of this season in and out of a National League side, is a bit behind Weston.

[trappatoni]

I only watch the academy highlights  but the standard looks miles off senior football.   There's just no physicality and I can't see these lads going from that straight into league 1.      

[RoyMac5]

25 minutes ago, trappatoni said:

I only watch the academy highlights  but the standard looks miles off senior football.   There's just no physicality and I can't see these lads going from that straight into league 1.      

Didn't Robinson play at Burton last season? But anyway there wasn't much physicality on show last night either.

[Ghost of Clough]

4 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Didn't Robinson play at Burton last season? But anyway there wasn't much physicality on show last night either.

Warne has opted to only use Robinson in the EFL Trophy.
Last season he got 45 minutes against Mansifeld - coming on as a half-time sub at 1-1, withthe game finishing 1-1
This season, he got a full 90, but only against Wolves U21s. He's been fit for most of the season and has been an unused sub in 9 games, including games where we won 2-0 (we only used 3 out of 5 subs) and 3-0 (we only used 3 out of 5 subs)

[LazloW]

Funny, you get a load of posts on various threads criticising Warne for not playing academy players and then when people in the know are asked who’s good enough, the answer that we have a few who might be good enough for Non-league, maybe league two or bottom of league one.  

I bow to the knowledge of people who see the Academy but doesn’t necessarily sound like there’s a lot coming through who are good enough (assuming of course people consider our 1st team players to be good enough for too if league 1!).  Obviously chucking some of these kids in might be the making of them and we’ll never know if we don’t try them, but I guess Warne is less able to take risks - particularly now we’re in a stone’s throw of automatics (and - as per - making a bit of a pigs ear about it).  

Is the bigger question why we don’t seem to have the kids coming through at the moment, or is the obvious answer administration and bigger clubs coming in a nicking all the talent. 

Edited January 24 by LazloW

[Ghost of Clough]

14 minutes ago, LazloW said:

Funny, you get a load of posts on various threads criticising Warne for not playing academy players and then when people in the know are asked who’s good enough, the answer that we have a few who might be good enough for Non-league, maybe league two or bottom of league one.  

I bow to the knowledge of people who see the Academy but doesn’t necessarily sound like there’s a lot coming through who are good enough (assuming of course people consider our 1st team players to be good enough for too if league 1!).  Obviously chucking some of these kids in might be the making of them and we’ll never know if we don’t try them, but I guess Warne is less able to take risks - particularly now we’re in a stone’s throw of automatics (and - as per - making a bit of a pigs ear about it).  

Is the bigger question why we don’t seem to have the kids coming through at the moment, or is the obvious answer administration and bigger clubs coming in a nicking all the talent. 

There's a difference between 10-20 minutes at the end of games or 1/2 starts over a season versus starting every week.
The likes of John O'Shea and Wes Brown were good squad players for Man Utd, but were only good enough to be regular starters in a side battling relegation.
Fabio Carvalho was playing infrequently for Liverpool last season, now he's on loan at Hull to play regularly. Freddie Ladapo from Ipswich to Charlton...Springett from Norwich to Northampton... the list goes on...

Other Cat 1 teams like Reading are using players in their first team who I wouldn't even put in our U21 side. If I were manager, I absolutely would have used Brown and Robinson a lot more than they have been. Weston would have had a few appearances following on from his good form in the U21s and brief appearance in the first team 9when he grabbed a goal and an assist). I would have given Cox a few outings at the end of games as a LCB in a back 3 - he's much better suited to that role than Cashin who would be better in the middle of a back 3 than on the left. However, I wouldn't expect them to be starting a run of games unless their perfomances when given a shot meritted it.

 

The U21 squad is deplated due to a couple of bad years in terms of scholar year groups passing through and not making the grade as well as 4 players who would have been good enough being snapped up by PL clubs. The U18s have stepped up early to fill that void. We also had to recruit lower potential players to help boost the numbers - Ridd, Oduroh, Bartley, Jeffcott, Radcliffe, Lindsay, Gibson-Hammond, Nto, Nunn, Weston, Oseni...

In terms of 1st year scholarship groups following on from Cashin, Sibley, etc in 2018, there is only Delap and Bardell who are at our club or a higher level from 2019, Gordon and Williams from 2020. This 2020 groups would ordinarliy be our senior players in the U21 squad now, however the rest of them have been released. From the 2021 group, Ryan moved to Brighton, Eze to Norwich, Ebiowei to Palace, whilst 4 others were released at the end of their scholarships (after 2nd year at U18 level). This is a big reason behind fewer U21 players being ready to step up than we would have liked.

In summary, there are a lot of youngsters coming through, but it's a bit soon for most of them. A few of them are ready for infrequent game time in our first team, but Warne doesn't like taking risks. If they aren't getting game time here, then loans out to clubs where they will play regularly is important.

[Magicman]

Robinson, Weston and Fapetu .

[EraniosSocks]

I’d start fapetu at the moment just to bring something new to the midfield 

[MackworthRamIsGod]

12 hours ago, Dartmouth Ram said:

Now that it’s becoming apparent that there isn’t as much in the transfer kitty as we’d all hoped, it asks the question whether we have anyone in our Academy at the moment who could make the step up to the First Team?

Is Tony Weston or Dajaune Brown the out-and-out Number 9 we so desperately need? Granted Brown’s been loaned to Gateshead but we do have the option to recall him after 28 days.

Would Adebayo Fapetu be that Ball-Winning Midfielder that we hoped Fornah would be? Dare I also mention that we also have a certain Bradley Johnson as an overage Academy Player who could do that role…

Are Carlos Richards or Ben Radcliffe an option out wide or are they either not ready or not good enough?

Personally, I would much rather us take a chance on our Academy Lads that have another over 30’s lunk on a bloated salary with little or no resale value. We need players at this stage of the season who are hungry and want to fight for the shirt which seems to be missing at the moment.

For me that would be Weston & Fapetu both of which have looked good in cup games, definitely worth a gamble if we can’t get the players we want.

Be interesting to know everyone else’s thoughts

Weston, Brown, Robinson and Fapetu should have played more games between them with Weston maybe even being a starter. Fapetu looked twice the player Fornah has proven to be.

But Whilst Warne is in charge, may as well close the academy, close the case and close the thread.

 

[Sparkle]

Warne has no intent on playing any of them at this football club 

[LeedsCityRam]

12 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

DRobinson's the only player who I think is ready for regular football at this level (lower end L1 level). I would trust his ability to play (and start) the odd game for us at this end of the table. He isn't yet ready for several starts. However, infrequent appearances throughtout the rest of the season would be enough to earn him a loan move for next season. He needs to improve his end product, but otherwise he's another safe and reliable player on the ball.

DBrown is next in the pecking order. He too would be good enough for seeing games out and the rare start. His level (in my opinion) is L2. However, the benefit of a National League loan is our ability to recall him in an emergency whilst a L2 loan would be fixed until the season has ended. The exposure to men's football will be a big boost from him, as I think it could be the difference between him mentally beign ready to play regularly for us next season.

Radcliffe and Weston have shown at other clubs that they are capable at handling themselves in men's football. Radcliffe played in the National League North last season, so a step up this season would have been a fair assupmption - he's been injured since October. Weston played infrequiently in the Scottish Championship last season for Partick and Cove Rangers. He's National League North or even National League level.

Oduroh, who spent the first half of this season in and out of a National League side, is a bit behind Weston.

Where do you see Fapetu & Wheeldon at this stage? Fapetu really impressed me in his one EFL Trophy start & sure he's made a first team matchday squad since. Wheeldon looks a big, quick lad and was very dangerous against (an admittedly already well beaten) Wolves u23s. 

Good points in your later post about young players being useful sporadically in first team games. Even Evan Ferguson gets that treatment at Brighton. Of course 21/22 proves that some can actually flourish when given extended playing time. Im sure Cashin would never have made it had he been 4 years older & emerged during Rowett/Lampard reigns.

[Duracell]

I think under Warne these players are as far away from the first team as anyone was under Rowett.

It’s a pity, and ultimately makes little sense given our financial situation. What’s the point in the expenditure if you’re not going to give players a chance and sell them?

[Ghost of Clough]

13 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Where do you see Fapetu & Wheeldon at this stage? Fapetu really impressed me in his one EFL Trophy start & sure he's made a first team matchday squad since. Wheeldon looks a big, quick lad and was very dangerous against (an admittedly already well beaten) Wolves u23s. 

Good points in your later post about young players being useful sporadically in first team games. Even Evan Ferguson gets that treatment at Brighton. Of course 21/22 proves that some can actually flourish when given extended playing time. Im sure Cashin would never have made it had he been 4 years older & emerged during Rowett/Lampard reigns.

Wheeldon only just stepped up to U21 football a few games before Christmas. Give him 12 months at that level before judging where to send him on loan. I don't think he's ready for first team game time.

Fapetu also only stepped up to U21 football his season. He's been a regular starter (helped by the occasional absence of DRobinson and Radcliffe being out for several months). He was regular contributor of goals and assists for the U18s last season, but has so far failed to contribute to a goal this season. Just like Wheeldon, he'll need another year or so at U21 level before he's loaned out. I wouldn't expect him to be involved in first team games until next season.

[littleover ram]

Didn’t we have to totally rebuild the youth teams after admin? It’ll be years before it’s functional in producing players again 

[IlsonDerby]

On 24/01/2024 at 22:50, Duracell said:

I think under Warne these players are as far away from the first team as anyone was under Rowett.

It’s a pity, and ultimately makes little sense given our financial situation. What’s the point in the expenditure if you’re not going to give players a chance and sell them?

I don’t understand this though - Clowes is a good business man. He chose at great expense to keep category 1 status for our academy. I don’t believe for a second that he wouldn’t have told Warne his expectations of a pipeline to the first team when they were discussing the job. He doesn’t seem incompetent from what I’ve read and heard about him. 
 

I have to assume based on this that they’re just not quite ready yet. 

[RoyMac5]

1 minute ago, IlsonDerby said:

I don’t understand this though - Clowes is a good business man. He chose at great expense to keep category 1 status for our academy. I don’t believe for a second that he wouldn’t have told Warne his expectations of a pipeline to the first team when they were discussing the job. He doesn’t seem incompetent from what I’ve read and heard about him. 
 

I have to assume based on this that they’re just not quite ready yet. 

He could have 'risked' more of them in the Cup games. I don't get it either from Clowes.

[OoooMarkWright]

On 24/01/2024 at 23:09, Ghost of Clough said:

Wheeldon only just stepped up to U21 football a few games before Christmas. Give him 12 months at that level before judging where to send him on loan. I don't think he's ready for first team game time.

Fapetu also only stepped up to U21 football his season. He's been a regular starter (helped by the occasional absence of DRobinson and Radcliffe being out for several months). He was regular contributor of goals and assists for the U18s last season, but has so far failed to contribute to a goal this season. Just like Wheeldon, he'll need another year or so at U21 level before he's loaned out. I wouldn't expect him to be involved in first team games until next season.

You mention loaning out these players before they get given a proper chance in the first team, but when was the last time this worked for us?

All of our successes from the academy have occurred without a loan. Riggott, Elliot, Hughes, Hendrick, Sibley, Knight, Bird, Cashin all went straight in. The last loan that worked for us was Sturridge over 25 years ago. With us being in League 1 and having a cat 1 academy, surely they should be ready for league 1 football now? Yes it’s a big step, but where is the evidence that loaning out works for us? Integrate them slowly with subs and cup games (EFL Trophy) whilst still getting top coaching should be the way ahead when in this league.