Palestine

[Comrade 86]

3 hours ago, Alph said:

Hamas can't lead a Palestinian State. But Likud can lead Israel. 

Territory is a stumbling block to those in Efrat, Ma'ale Adumim and the escalated settler plan Israel has come up with. 

The right of return is something Israeli Jews have a right to. It's for "Greater Israel". 

As Sunak and Co say. They want to see a permanent ceasefire and not a temporary pause. So continuing arms sales to Israel while cutting funding to UNWRA is unfortunately a necessary step to peace. You have to think of the bigger picture. 

 

See the likes of you and I clearly don't get the nuances these clever folk do. I'd always thought that stopping people murdering women and children would be viewed as preferable to sitting around watching it happen while tugging my forelocks and pondering the right to return conundrum. Silly me! 

[Alph]

1 hour ago, Comrade 86 said:

See the likes of you and I clearly don't get the nuances these clever folk do. I'd always thought that stopping people murdering women and children would be viewed as preferable to sitting around watching it happen while tugging my forelocks and pondering the right to return conundrum. Silly me! 

"You don't make peace with friends. You make it with very unsavory enemies."

The clever people say the way to permanent ceasefire is through a bloody brutal military campaign and not through a temporary ceasefire being extended with a series of negotiations. 

I'm definitely stupid. Because I'd have thought if you want to make peace between Israel and Palestine that you'd work with whoever the major factions are. Even if they disgust you and can't be entirely trusted. Especially when Hamas and Fatah have been in talks. I'd call that an opportunity?

Apparently if you dictate to the Palestinians who should represent them while killing them that eventually you'll win them over. 

With Hezbollah and Iran full of serious threats I'm sure de-escalation is around the corner. 

[Comrade 86]

16 minutes ago, Alph said:

"You don't make peace with friends. You make it with very unsavory enemies."

Ah, we thickos have stumbled on something here. I'm thinking there's something to the apparently warped logic after all. Clearly after WW1 and WW2, we should not have negotiated the terms of the Nazi surrender with Germany, but instead with someone nicer. The Belgians maybe? They're almost German, but less genocidal and they make lovely chocolate and beer. They let dogs in their restaurants too and anyone who is nice to doggos is alright with me. Or perhaps the Dutch as an alternative? They're a pretty chilled bunch on account of being too stoned to bother having a row, so they'd be way more compliant and easy to deal with. Food for thought! 

[Crewton]

1 hour ago, Comrade 86 said:

Ah, we thickos have stumbled on something here. I'm thinking there's something to the apparently warped logic after all. Clearly after WW1 and WW2, we should not have negotiated the terms of the Nazi surrender with Germany, but instead with someone nicer. The Belgians maybe? They're almost German, but less genocidal and they make lovely chocolate and beer. They let dogs in their restaurants too and anyone who is nice to doggos is alright with me. Or perhaps the Dutch as an alternative? They're a pretty chilled bunch on account of being too stoned to bother having a row, so they'd be way more compliant and easy to deal with. Food for thought! 

I think Netanyahu would absolutely love to 'negotiate' a surrender like the one that the Allies 'negotiated' with Nazi Germany.

https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/surrender-of-germany#:~:text=1.,this date under German control.

Don't give him ideas FFS.

 

[Comrade 86]

9 minutes ago, Crewton said:

I think Netanyahu would absolutely love to 'negotiate' a surrender like the one that the Allies 'negotiated' with Nazi Germany.

https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/surrender-of-germany#:~:text=1.,this date under German control.

Don't give him ideas FFS.

 

Not sure why I'm laughing really, but I guess it beats the alternative. That said, it's hard not to despair no matter how hard one tries to bury one's thoughts elsewhere. 

[Comrade 86]

And so it goes on...

Many Palestinians in the Gaza Strip will be wondering how they are going to feed their families after World Central Kitchen (WCK) paused its operations in response to the killing of seven of its aid workers in an Israeli air strike.

Another US charity it works with, Anera, has also suspended work because of the escalating risks faced by its local staff and their families.

Together, they were serving two million meals a week across the Palestinian territory, where the UN has warned that an estimated 1.1 million people - half the population - are facing catastrophic hunger because of Israeli restrictions on aid deliveries, the ongoing hostilities and the breakdown of order.

WCK's decision to pause its work also led to the "freezing" of a maritime aid corridor from Cyprus, which the charity helped set up last month to increase the trickle of aid getting into the north of Gaza and avert a looming famine.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68728378

[Alph]

Israel was told to allow more aid in. 

Now aid doesn't want to come in. 

We welcome Israel to investigate Israel 

Edited April 4 by Alph

[Leeds Ram]

18 hours ago, Comrade 86 said:

Ah, we thickos have stumbled on something here. I'm thinking there's something to the apparently warped logic after all. Clearly after WW1 and WW2, we should not have negotiated the terms of the Nazi surrender with Germany, but instead with someone nicer. The Belgians maybe? They're almost German, but less genocidal and they make lovely chocolate and beer. They let dogs in their restaurants too and anyone who is nice to doggos is alright with me. Or perhaps the Dutch as an alternative? They're a pretty chilled bunch on account of being too stoned to bother having a row, so they'd be way more compliant and easy to deal with. Food for thought! 

The problem with your example here is that we didn't negotiate terms of surrender with the Nazis... their surrender had to be unconditional and absolute for us to accept it. I was merely highlighting that it's very easy to say let's get a ceasefire. Almost everyone can agree with that tbh. The bigger problem, besides stopping the clock for a few months or even a few years, necessitates trying to dig out a form of a solution from this mess. Finding a solution that both Israel and Palestine can stomach is further away than it likely has been since 48 itself if current surveys are to be believed. 

[Alph]

It's so easy to say let's get a ceasefire. So I didn't say it. In fact, I opposed it. In fact, I opposed it and offered full support to Israel. In fact, I opposed it and offered full support to Israel and gaslight people calling for a ceasefire. 

Because when I say permanent ceasefire what I really mean is the surrender of Hamas. Which will be replaced by Hamas 2.0 because it doesn't address any of the concerns of Palestinians to have the biggest Palestinian threat to Israeli expansion destroyed. 

And now, while i still send Israelis weapons that are being used in a possible genocide and certain war crimes I will claim that I am the only one who can the bigger picture. Which is by enabling Israel to kill Palestinians that the Palestinians and the entire region will be more inclined to accept me as the arbiter of peace. 

An unsteady ceasefire that allows aid and  negotiation is more harmful than a bloody military campaign that stands next to no chance of being decisive without killing a significant number of the Palestinian population 

Edited April 4 by Alph

[Comrade 86]

1 hour ago, Leeds Ram said:

The problem with your example here is that we didn't negotiate terms of surrender with the Nazis... their surrender had to be unconditional and absolute for us to accept it. I was merely highlighting that it's very easy to say let's get a ceasefire. Almost everyone can agree with that tbh. The bigger problem, besides stopping the clock for a few months or even a few years, necessitates trying to dig out a form of a solution from this mess. Finding a solution that both Israel and Palestine can stomach is further away than it likely has been since 48 itself if current surveys are to be believed. 

LOL, not sure how you figured my post was in response to anything you wrote and equally how you would see it as anything other than tongue in cheek and in need of an explanation. For clarity, the 'clever people' I referred to are those in charge, that is, our leaders et al, not your good self.

Edited April 4 by Comrade 86

[Eddie]

Israel doesn't need to kill Palestinians any more - they just need to kill aid workers and let entropy do the rest.

Clever.

[Leeds Ram]

35 minutes ago, Comrade 86 said:

LOL, not sure how you figured my post was in response to anything you wrote and equally how you would see it as anything other than tongue in cheek and in need of an explanation. For clarity, the 'clever people' I referred to are those in charge, that is, our leaders et al, not your good self.

My mistake. I assumed it was in response as it touched on the very same topics I posted about 🙂 

[Alph]

21 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Israel doesn't need to kill Palestinians any more - they just need to kill aid workers and let entropy do the rest.

Clever.

Don't forget the meddling journalists. Not the ones that are denied access. The hundred-ish others. 

[Comrade 86]

26 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

My mistake. I assumed it was in response as it touched on the very same topics I posted about 🙂 

I'll always quote someone if I'm responding to anything they've said, or tag them at least. My point was really that while any lasting peace seems a million miles off now, that doesn't preclude a ceasefire, which as you've said in your response, is something nearly everyone wants to see, especially now that the aid convoys have been halted.

There's over a million already suffering the effects of famine and that number will now increase rapidly and with devastating effect, while the West sits by and does nothing but posture, or in the US's case, restocks Israel's armoury. Yet while good folk march and protest against leaders who do not represent their views and wishes, some seem more fixated with the nature of the protests than the potential starvation of hundreds of thousands of children, not to mention their parents.

Are we to suppose that Palestinian kids might be part of the bedrock that supports Hamas. Not for me. Not now, not ever.

[Eddie]

Israel seem to be expecting significant reprisals following their (arguable) assassination of a senior Iranian General in the Iranian consulate in Syria, to the point that some consulates/embassies are being evacuated, IDF leave cancelled, reservists being called up, threat levels are elevated to their maximum and GPS signals are now being disrupted over major Israeli cities.

The Hosea quote "For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind" seems to sum it all up. Hold on to your hats - it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better.

[ramit]

16 hours ago, Eddie said:

Israel seem to be expecting significant reprisals following their (arguable) assassination of a senior Iranian General in the Iranian consulate in Syria, to the point that some consulates/embassies are being evacuated, IDF leave cancelled, reservists being called up, threat levels are elevated to their maximum and GPS signals are now being disrupted over major Israeli cities.

The Hosea quote "For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind" seems to sum it all up. Hold on to your hats - it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better.

Trying to goad Iran into a serious enough attack to pull the Yanks into the conflict is the word on the street.  Cynical I thinks the Yanks and Israel are working hand in hand to that end, the headlines of USA trying to hold back Israeli ambition being only showmanship.

It was foolish of Iran to gather so many commanders in the same house, they must however see what the attack was meant to accomplish.

Edited April 5 by ramit

[Alph]

Feels very much like we are standing at the precipice. Rafah is a bargaining chip. 

America draw the line there with the world watching

Netenyahu needs results. It's not that Israelis are against the war but they are against how he's handled it. 

Hamas would sacrifice it or are willing to call the bluff. They think they're in a strong position

With Iran and Hezbollah weighing up what they think is the best "response" and Israel are preparing for "the next stage", the clock is ticking for Palestinians. 

I can't believe that Israel's next stage would be Rafah. Without America's blessing, with Iran and Hezbollah threatening... It just seems a length even they wouldn't go to and I feel like I've been invested long enough not to be surprised by the IDF. If they do though.... well, it won't be Russia that drag us directly into a major conflict. Might be being a bit dramatic but I just can't see any invasion of Rafah that doesn't end with a Royale Rumble.

[Comrade 86]

2 hours ago, Alph said:

Feels very much like we are standing at the precipice. Rafah is a bargaining chip. 

America draw the line there with the world watching

Netenyahu needs results. It's not that Israelis are against the war but they are against how he's handled it. 

Hamas would sacrifice it or are willing to call the bluff. They think they're in a strong position

With Iran and Hezbollah weighing up what they think is the best "response" and Israel are preparing for "the next stage", the clock is ticking for Palestinians. 

I can't believe that Israel's next stage would be Rafah. Without America's blessing, with Iran and Hezbollah threatening... It just seems a length even they wouldn't go to and I feel like I've been invested long enough not to be surprised by the IDF. If they do though.... well, it won't be Russia that drag us directly into a major conflict. Might be being a bit dramatic but I just can't see any invasion of Rafah that doesn't end with a Royale Rumble.

An assault on Rafah would be the end of Netanyahu and would effectively curtail all bar the most rabid of Western support. I think the backlash from the murder of aid workers last week has given the Israelis pause for thought. It's one thing killing sub-human Arabs, it's another thing altogether killing white aid workers. Personally, I think Netanyahu is done and if so, good feckin riddance.

[Comrade 86]

An interesting analysis from the Washington Post, if anyone is interested:

The fallacy of the ‘West versus the rest’ worldview

In the shadow of the wars in Gaza and Ukraine, a certain shorthand emerged. The battles that raged in war-ravaged cities, trench-lined marshlands and the corridors of the United Nations had sharpened a burgeoning global divide. Countries outside the West did not seem to share the same outrage over Russia’s invasion of Ukraine as their U.S. and European counterparts, nor locate in the war the same fears of the collapse of international norms voiced by many in the West.

Full article here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/04/09/liberal-west-versus-illiberal-rest-worldview-analysis-matias-spektor/

[Crewton]

2 hours ago, Comrade 86 said:

An interesting analysis from the Washington Post, if anyone is interested:

The fallacy of the ‘West versus the rest’ worldview

In the shadow of the wars in Gaza and Ukraine, a certain shorthand emerged. The battles that raged in war-ravaged cities, trench-lined marshlands and the corridors of the United Nations had sharpened a burgeoning global divide. Countries outside the West did not seem to share the same outrage over Russia’s invasion of Ukraine as their U.S. and European counterparts, nor locate in the war the same fears of the collapse of international norms voiced by many in the West.

Full article here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/04/09/liberal-west-versus-illiberal-rest-worldview-analysis-matias-spektor/

Subscription only, unfortunately.

Unsurprisingly perhaps, it's also a core principle of the Worker's Party of Great Britain. In addition to (understandable) support for a Palestinian state and opposition to Zionism, applicants seeking selection as PPCs for the party in the impending GE are expected to support the party's stance that the war in Ukraine is NATO'S fault.