Russell Brand

[YorkshireRam]

Some absolute morons on this thread that are clearly wildly uneducated when it comes to the very apparent flaws in the judicial system with sex offence convictions. 

The whole 'waiting for a criminal verdict' doesn't work when ascertaining level of consent is nigh-in impossible within the current legislative infrastructure. Believing victims is important, it often takes immense courage to speak out, especially when they're aware the entire system is rigged against being able to prove them right...

The Brand rumours are seriously old news. Katherine Ryan, most recently, dropped some very heavy-handed hints, before this all broke. Anyone that leaps to defending Brand when considering the above, is being immensely naïve.

[Jubbs]

12 minutes ago, Anon said:

Still scratching my head on this one. Would you agree that a degree of scepticism is fair regarding unproven rape allegations?

I'll point you again in the direction of this statistic. I'm sick of hearing this "rape allegations ruin lives" they don't. 

Greenwood is still playing football, Ben Yedder just captained Monaco at the weekend, Ronaldo is still playing football. There's tens/hundreds of famous actors still getting jobs even though there's serious allegations against them. 

[MaltRam]

6 minutes ago, Jubbs said:

I'll point you again in the direction of this statistic. I'm sick of hearing this "rape allegations ruin lives" they don't. 

Greenwood is still playing football, Ben Yedder just captained Monaco at the weekend, Ronaldo is still playing football. There's tens/hundreds of famous actors still getting jobs even though there's serious allegations against them. 

Genuine question, with apologies for my ignorance...how is the data in that chart gathered if it's not reported somehow?

[Anon]

6 minutes ago, Jubbs said:

I'll point you again in the direction of this statistic. I'm sick of hearing this "rape allegations ruin lives" they don't. 

Greenwood is still playing football, Ben Yedder just captained Monaco at the weekend, Ronaldo is still playing football. There's tens/hundreds of famous actors still getting jobs even though there's serious allegations against them. 

The thread Stive linked is literally about a guy who spent 17 years in prison due to a wrongful rape conviction.

[cstand]

7 minutes ago, Jubbs said:

I'll point you again in the direction of this statistic. I'm sick of hearing this "rape allegations ruin lives" they don't. 

Greenwood is still playing football, Ben Yedder just captained Monaco at the weekend, Ronaldo is still playing football. There's tens/hundreds of famous actors still getting jobs even though there's serious allegations against them. 

https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/mar/13/barrow-men-falsely-accused-of-tell-court-they-tried-to-kill-themselves
 

[Archied]

5 hours ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

That doesn't appear to have stopped you

Gave you a laugh imogi but on a serious note it would be very hard for me to sit on a jury of any trial that may or may not be brought against him as my personal view on him for years is he would be just the type of bloke to do such a thing so would find it hard to judge on just the pure evidence 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Shipley Ram]

4 minutes ago, Jubbs said:

I'll point you again in the direction of this statistic. I'm sick of hearing this "rape allegations ruin lives" they don't. 

It depends who you are, for most of us a rape allegation would ruin our lives. If you're rich and powerfull enough you can ride it out more easily.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jan/03/i-went-downhill-man-falsely-accused-of-on-becoming-a-hate-figure

 

What is the source for your statistic? The total number of rapes is an estimate, who is estimating in this case?

[Ram-Alf]

18 minutes ago, Jubbs said:

I'll point you again in the direction of this statistic. I'm sick of hearing this "rape allegations ruin lives" they don't. 

Greenwood is still playing football, Ben Yedder just captained Monaco at the weekend, Ronaldo is still playing football. There's tens/hundreds of famous actors still getting jobs even though there's serious allegations against them. 

It cost this fella £12million

[Jubbs]

7 minutes ago, cstand said:

https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/mar/13/barrow-men-falsely-accused-of-tell-court-they-tried-to-kill-themselves

Okay? This is obviously an extreme case as it wouldn't have made the news otherwise. In the end, she got what she deserved. But this shouldn't take away from any rape victims whatsoever and the whataboutery isn't needed here.

[Archied]

4 hours ago, Anon said:

I'm interested what he did to upset you so much. He can be very grating and he was/is a massive slut (something that appears to be coming back to bite him on his much publicised "winky"), but at the height of his fame he was just an average vacuous celebrity.

I'm completely done with trial by social media. I don't care about allegations other than wanting the accused/accusers to have their day in court to establish the actual facts of the matter. Too many times we've been assured by a rabid media and even more rabid social media mob that the accused is as guilty as a puppy sitting next to a pile of poo, only for charges to be dismissed once that old pesky proof is requested. Benjamin Mendy being a recent case in point.

I just found the way he talked about women in his comedy disgusting , the stunt with the granddaughter of the actor from faulty towers was beyond disgusting amongst many other stunts , he s pretty much everything I find stomach churning in a bloke , that said I’ve been open enough to state right off the bat that I’m fully aware that this does not make me best placed to judge how much is witch-hunt for his outspoken position on political issues ( not really seen any of his stuff as I avoid him but it’s out there that he is taking certain positions quite loudly to a fair sized number of followers) and the msn now which I’m pretty sure comes into play and I’ve stated my concern re trial by media 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Anon]

13 minutes ago, MaltRam said:

Genuine question, with apologies for my ignorance...how is the data in that chart gathered if it's not reported somehow?

The breakdown of the statistics used can be found here. https://theenlivenproject.com/the-truth-about-false-accusation/

"Estimates from research suggest that between 75 and 95 per cent of rape crimes are never reported to the police." is taken from a crown prosecution service report. I've only skimmed the document, but I don't think the actual research data is cited in the document.

There's a bit of jiggery pokery going on from the enliven project as they've chosen to apply the 2% false accusation statistic only to the 10% reported rapes and decided to assume that the theoretical 90% unreported would have no false accusations whatsoever.

[Anon]

10 minutes ago, Archied said:

I just found the way he talked about women in his comedy disgusting , the stunt with the granddaughter of the actor from faulty towers was beyond disgusting amongst many other stunts , he s pretty much everything I find stomach churning in a bloke , that said I’ve been open enough to state right off the bat that I’m fully aware that this does not make me best placed to judge how much is witch-hunt for his outspoken position on political issues ( not really seen any of his stuff as I avoid him but it’s out there that he is taking certain positions quite loudly to a fair sized number of followers) and the msn now which I’m pretty sure comes into play and I’ve stated my concern re trial by media 🤷🏻‍♂️

I was particularly unimpressed with the Andrew Sachs debacle. I felt that both Brand and Ross behaved appallingly.

[Normanton Lad]

14 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

The whole 'waiting for a criminal verdict' doesn't work when ascertaining level of consent is nigh-in impossible within the current legislative infrastructure. Believing victims is important, it often takes immense courage to speak out, especially when they're aware the entire system is rigged against being able to prove them right...

 

"Believing victims" is assuming the facts are already decided. It is only after all the facts have been decided that you can call someone a victim. You are putting the cart before the horse.

To find whether someone's claims are true you don't try and "prove them right". You try and prove them wrong. It is only by looking for contradictions in the evidence or alternative explanations for the evidence that you approach the truth.

If there are no contradictions or the alternative evidence is weaker then the claim is probably true. It is the same with science. You don't prove a hypothesis by just collecting evidence that supports the hypothesis. You try find evidence that disproves the hypothesis.

You must look at the alternative explanations for these woman coming forward before you can take their claims as facts. There have been many people put in jail by false claims.

[YorkshireRam]

1 minute ago, Normanton Lad said:

"Believing victims" is assuming the facts are already decided. It is only after all the facts have been decided that you can call someone a victim. You are putting the cart before the horse.

To find whether someone's claims are true you don't try and "prove them right". You try and prove them wrong. It is only by looking for contradictions in the evidence or alternative explanations for the evidence that you approach the truth.

If there are no contradictions or the alternative evidence is weaker then the claim is probably true. It is the same with science. You don't prove a hypothesis by just collecting evidence that supports the hypothesis. You try find evidence that disproves the hypothesis.

You must look at the alternative explanations for these woman coming forward before you can take their claims as facts. There have been many people put in jail by false claims.

Far, far, far less people have been wrongly convicted, than the amount of people who never got justice because of the flawed judicial process for cases like these. It's such a weak strawman argument. 

The justice system doesn't work for these cases, so basing moral or ethical opinion upon their verdict is short-sighted, at best. 

[maxjam]

Whilst I would agree that the current judicial system isn't the best, we can't have trial by media and everyone has to be assumed innocent until proven guilty.  Nice to see those that believe that in this thread being called out as morons 🫤

Whilst I've never cared for Russell Brand, a self confessed womanizer, narcissist and all round general t**t imo, until these accusations are submitted to the Police and have been investigated thoroughly, it could just be seen as another #metoo moment in which lots of men were wrongly accused. 

FWIW, if he is found guilty then I hope he spends a long time in prison.  If not, I'd question why this was plastered all over the media and immediately twisted into another left vs right argument.  Everything these days is so divisive - there can be no nuance.

Finally, that Enliven Project graph has been around a long time was heavily criticized at the time.  Even the author admitted errors in the graph and it was to be used more as a 'conversation starter'.

https://slate.com/human-interest/2013/01/the-enliven-project-s-false-rape-accusations-infographic-great-intentions-but-it-isn-t-accurate.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2014/12/09/the-truth-about-a-viral-graphic-on-rape-statistics/

[Archied]

14 minutes ago, Jubbs said:

Okay? This is obviously an extreme case as it wouldn't have made the news otherwise. In the end, she got what she deserved. But this shouldn't take away from any rape victims whatsoever and the whataboutery isn't needed here.

We really are on probably one of the most difficult issues our society has to deal with purely because hard evidence is very rarely available in most cases , it is so often the case that the only people who really can know the truth are the two people involved , there was talk recently of wanting to take these kind of cases in Scotland in front of a judge with no jury to get conviction rates up , setting targets to get conviction rates up also has massive pit falls , do we set quotas pressures and reduce the quality of convictions ? It’s bloody difficult, to be raped must be amongst the worst things that can happen to someone and by the same token to be wrongly accused / convicted of rape must be right up there with it , 

I think we can all agree that a rapist is the scum of the earth and perhaps have that as the known starting point for anyone giving opinions or questioning in this thread 🤷🏻‍♂️

[YorkshireRam]

1 minute ago, maxjam said:

Whilst I would agree that the current judicial system isn't the best, we can't have trial by media and everyone has to be assumed innocent until proven guilty.  Nice to see those that believe that in this thread being called out as morons 🫤

Whilst I've never cared for Russell Brand, a self confessed womanizer, narcissist and all round general t**t imo, until these accusations are submitted to the Police and have been investigated thoroughly, it could just be seen as another #metoo moment in which lots of men were wrongly accused. 

FWIW, if he is found guilty then I hope he spends a long time in prison.  If not, I'd question why this was plastered all over the media and immediately twisted into another left vs right argument.  Everything these days is so divisive - there can be no nuance.

Finally, that Enliven Project graph has been around a long time was heavily criticized at the time.  Even the author admitted errors in the graph and it was to be used more as a 'conversation starter'.

https://slate.com/human-interest/2013/01/the-enliven-project-s-false-rape-accusations-infographic-great-intentions-but-it-isn-t-accurate.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2014/12/09/the-truth-about-a-viral-graphic-on-rape-statistics/

#metoo wasn't a conspiracy whereby innocent men were wrongly accused... It was the civil movement that finally outed Harvey Weinstein and other prolific and well-known predators who'd previously been able to escape accountability, so not entirely sure the point you're making there.

Ultimately, how can you prove someone innocent or guilty in a 'he said, she said' situation within the current legal confines of the system? Add onto that, the startlingly low conviction rates actually now deter victims from reporting crimes, because what's the point? Invasive tests, just to watch justice not be served... That's traumatising in an entirely different way. 

I used to be a moron on this topic too, until I actually read up properly and developed an educated opinion. I'll happily retain the stance that if you base moral opinion upon the criminal verdict from an utterly broken system, you're a moron. 

[Anon]

2 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

#metoo wasn't a conspiracy whereby innocent men were wrongly accused... It was the civil movement that finally outed Harvey Weinstein and other prolific and well-known predators who'd previously been able to escape accountability, so not entirely sure the point you're making there.

Ultimately, how can you prove someone innocent or guilty in a 'he said, she said' situation within the current legal confines of the system? Add onto that, the startlingly low conviction rates actually now deter victims from reporting crimes, because what's the point? Invasive tests, just to watch justice not be served... That's traumatising in an entirely different way. 

I used to be a moron on this topic too, until I actually read up properly and developed an educated opinion. I'll happily retain the stance that if you base moral opinion upon the criminal verdict from an utterly broken system, you're a moron. 

So, what level of collateral damage in terms of wrongful convictions do you deem acceptable? Is 2% ok? Since you've become enlightened and decided that judicial process is unnecessary how many innocent people are you prepared to jail to boost the rape conviction rate?

[Archied]

10 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

#metoo wasn't a conspiracy whereby innocent men were wrongly accused... It was the civil movement that finally outed Harvey Weinstein and other prolific and well-known predators who'd previously been able to escape accountability, so not entirely sure the point you're making there.

Ultimately, how can you prove someone innocent or guilty in a 'he said, she said' situation within the current legal confines of the system? Add onto that, the startlingly low conviction rates actually now deter victims from reporting crimes, because what's the point? Invasive tests, just to watch justice not be served... That's traumatising in an entirely different way. 

I used to be a moron on this topic too, until I actually read up properly and developed an educated opinion. I'll happily retain the stance that if you base moral opinion upon the criminal verdict from an utterly broken system, you're a moron. 

You swing from claiming a properly developed and educated opinion to throwing out emotive insults ,not great 

I do still have interest in what changes/ steps can be taken in your view to make the system better , it’s not just numbers , it has to be right ,,, we all in the main have daughter s AND sons , sisters AND brothers ect ect 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Archied

[maxjam]

12 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

#metoo wasn't a conspiracy whereby innocent men were wrongly accused... It was the civil movement that finally outed Harvey Weinstein and other prolific and well-known predators who'd previously been able to escape accountability, so not entirely sure the point you're making there.

I know that a lot of predators were outed, but a lot of innocent people were caught up in it as well.  

The point I'm making is we can't have trial by media as the arbiter of justice.

12 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

Ultimately, how can you prove someone innocent or guilty in a 'he said, she said' situation within the current legal confines of the system? Add onto that, the startlingly low conviction rates actually now deter victims from reporting crimes, because what's the point? Invasive tests, just to watch justice not be served... That's traumatising in an entirely different way. 

Therein lies the inherent problem with rape cases - in a lot of cases its he said/she said.  Do we just #believeallwomen and if some innocent men get thrown in jail and have their lives ruined think its a price worth paying?  Or would you want the allegations testing thoroughly if they were made against you or your son?

12 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

I used to be a moron on this topic too, until I actually read up properly and developed an educated opinion. I'll happily retain the stance that if you base moral opinion upon the criminal verdict from an utterly broken system, you're a moron. 

Far clever people than me have thought long and hard about how to increase the chances of putting real rapists behind bars.  I have no answers.  But I do know you can't rely on trial by media and most agree that the #metoo movement went too far.