The Paul Warne Poll

[Archied]

13 minutes ago, Kokosnuss said:

That's fair enough. We can't know for sure, that's inarguable. It's one of those things you can say about pretty much any discussion we may have on the forum though - we're not on the coaching team so we don't really know what Warne is asking the players to do. We're not in the meetings with the Chairman so we don't know what specific targets the manager has been set, etc

It doesn't mean that we can't look at what evidence we do have to hand, and I think 51 games in charge there's plenty there to form some pretty solid opinions and even draw one or two conclusions.

There were a fair few (from memory, not claiming fact) who seemed happy enough to conclude that 12 games under Rosenior was enough to know that he wasn't the person to take us forward, after all.

Nope , I’m with you there regards the fact it’s opinions and only time will tell , some managers get time some don’t , I was happy when we swapped rosenior for warne as I didn’t enjoy what I was seeing under rosenior but I don’t think for one minute that I can say with any certainty that rosenior wouldn’t have gone on to success with derby any more than I can say warne will , luckily I don’t have to make the decisions like clowes does 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, FlyBritishMidland said:

I think this is being missed.  In the last couple of weeks we’ve had lists of posts and even threads dedicated to what Warne’s has said, how he’s said said it, what he meant by it, how players would take it, etc.  Every press conference has been analysed to death after a defeat or the scrappy win over Fleetwood.  Ultimately, it’s the view of those at Moor Farm and in the dressing room that count.  It seems Waggy is a fan and Warne is giving players confidence.

I agree wholeheartedly with everything you say. But there are a lot of posters, who may or not watch the games and are not privy to what happens at Moor Farm who formulate their views against Warne by interpreting their own version of what is happening to suit their own agenda which they see as justification to call for his dismissal before he has been given sufficient time to be judged fairly. Warne has been here almost eleven months, which really should not be seen as a long time in football; but it exceeds the average lifespan of a Derby County manager over the past 10 years, which currently stands at 10 months. Maybe they have become conditioned to Mel's policy of hire them quick and fire them quicker, despite the crippling costs of contract termination which come with it; some now claim that modern contracts all contain early termination clauses in favour of the football club but we never see the evidence to support that. Would Warne really have risked leaving the haven of security he had at Rotherham for a quick year here and forego proper compensation for the remaining 75% of his unfulfilled contract? If so he's an even bigger fool than his doubters are already claiming him to be. Many of those doubters are simply too young to have seen a successful Derby football team. Anyone under 30 has seen very little of Derby in the top tier of English football and have not witnessed what it takes for the club to be successful but a lot of those people are the most vociferous critics with a we-know-best attitude on here; some older fan have forgotten what it takes.

David Clowes saw the Arthur Cox and Jim Smith years and also the disappointment and near-disaster of The Three Amigos' and Mel Morris' tenure. I hope and think that he will understand that patience is a virtue worthy of persevering with and that's why he sees the rebuilding of the club as a longer term project and not capable of being achieved by a quick-fix. I don't expect the patience of the fanbase to increase as the project proceeds and the divisions of opinion that have emerged in the past year will continue and probably increase until we reach the Premier League. Then let's hope that in the first season we accrue more than 11 points.

In the long term, it's not been easy being a supporter of Derby County for too long a time. But those of us able to say that are still here because We're Derby 'til We Die as are the rest of the fans hopefully.

 

[RoyMac5]

16 minutes ago, Brailsford Ram said:

Would Warne really have risked leaving the haven of security he had at Rotherham for a quick year here and forego proper compensation for the remaining 75% of his unfulfilled contract?

Maybe he thought if he couldn't keep Rotherham up, again, that this time his time might be up anyway? Ooh look, another manager kept them up, who would have thought that possible?! 😄

Edited August 29, 2023 by RoyMac5

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Maybe he thought if he couldn't keep Rotherham up again, that his time might be up anyway? Ooh look, another manager kept them up, who would have thought that possible?! 😄

Yes, they were 8th when he left to come here and after that, they just managed to survive. They are near the bottom again now. Maybe the Rotherham fans are grateful he stayed for the first nine games last season rather than coming here pre-season.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Brailsford Ram

[May Contain Nuts]

 

18 minutes ago, Brailsford Ram said:

Many of those doubters are simply too young to have seen a successful Derby football team. Anyone under 30 has seen very little of Derby in the top tier of English football and have not witnessed what it takes for the club to be successful but a lot of those people are the most vociferous critics with a we-know-best attitude on here; some older fan have forgotten what it takes.

Posturing, presumptive, judgemental, condescending nonsense.

 

[Caerphilly Ram]

1 hour ago, Kokosnuss said:

This is definitely a positive, but ultimately its giving plaudits for something which should be de rigeur for any football manager.

The bar some people have set for their expectations of Warne are, IMO, below what it should be. Others will argue the opposite.

You’ve been balanced in your posts previously @Kokosnuss, it definitely feels like you’re swaying much closer to the Warne out perspective than you used to with your recent posts and activity. 
On the above point, one of the criticisms several posters have levelled at Warne for the past year (ish) is that he doesn’t get the most out of the players at his disposal, now there’s a direct quote from one of the players commending Warne’s impact on him since he rejoined the club and you’re dismissing that as “par for the course”. Isn’t it evidence, though small in terms of sample size, that Warne can motivate and inspire at least some of the players at his disposal? Contrary to some of what people have seen, heard, understood or assumed.

 

[FlyBritishMidland]

28 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Maybe he thought if he couldn't keep Rotherham up, again, that this time his time might be up anyway? Ooh look, another manager kept them up, who would have thought that possible?! 😄

 

23 minutes ago, Brailsford Ram said:

Yes, they were 8th when he left to come here and after that, they just managed to survive. They are near the bottom again now. Maybe the Rotherham fans are grateful he stayed for the first nine games last season rather than coming here pre-season.

Exactly that @Brailsford Ram.  I posted earlier in this thread that they averaged 1.5pts/game under Warne and less than 1pt/game after he’d left.  PW deserves some credit for that.

[FlyBritishMidland]

1 hour ago, Kokosnuss said:

It doesn't mean that we can't look at what evidence we do have to hand, and I think 51 games in charge there's plenty there to form some pretty solid opinions and even draw one or two conclusions.

 

Currently our 4th best manager based on points per game.  And after the same number of games at the same level better than Arthur Cox.

[duncanjwitham]

4 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

On the above point, one of the criticisms several posters have levelled at Warne for the past year (ish) is that he doesn’t get the most out of the players at his disposal, now there’s a direct quote from one of the players commending Warne’s impact on him

Those are 2 pretty unrelated things though. Nobody has ever really questioned Warne’s motivational skills. The issues with not getting the most out of players are all tactical - playing players in roles they cannot do, or not giving players the support around them they need.  No amount of motivation is going to turn Hourihane into an energetic midfielder, or Bradley into a mobile centre half.

[FlyBritishMidland]

2 hours ago, Kokosnuss said:

This is definitely a positive, but ultimately its giving plaudits for something which should be de rigeur for any football manager.

The bar some people have set for their expectations of Warne are, IMO, below what it should be. Others will argue the opposite.

Now this is where I struggle.  Warne is critiqued over every word he says, then there’s something positive and it’s part of his job.

If we’re prepared to criticise we should be prepared to praise.  Imagine if your boss criticises you and analyses every minor flaw and then when a colleague praises you your boss says “that’s their job”.  I can’t imagine you’d be very happy about that.

[Caerphilly Ram]

5 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

Those are 2 pretty unrelated things though. Nobody has ever really questioned Warne’s motivational skills. The issues with not getting the most out of players are all tactical - playing players in roles they cannot do, or not giving players the support around them they need.  No amount of motivation is going to turn Hourihane into an energetic midfielder, or Bradley into a mobile centre half.

How can his ability to get the most out of the players at his disposal be “pretty unrelated” to his motivational skills? The two are inherently linked.

Yes Warne has shown some deficiencies with his tactics at times, and he’s also shown some competence with it occasionally (and yes often through circumstance rather than seemingly by choice), but as @FlyBritishMidland has just commented, almost reading my mind, it strikes me as a sort of double standard when people are keen to jump on and criticise things Warne has said but then don’t give the same positive credence to when his players say positive things. 

[duncanjwitham]

1 minute ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

How can his ability to get the most out of the players at his disposal be “pretty unrelated” to his motivational skills? The two are inherently linked.

Yes Warne has shown some deficiencies with his tactics at times, and he’s also shown some competence with it occasionally (and yes often through circumstance rather than seemingly by choice), but as @FlyBritishMidland has just commented, almost reading my mind, it strikes me as a sort of double standard when people are keen to jump on and criticise things Warne has said but then don’t give the same positive credence to when his players say positive things. 

They’re unrelated in this context, because people aren’t criticising his motivational skills, they’re very specifically criticising the way he sets his teams up and the way he uses the players he has available to him.  Just because those 2 things sometimes get lumped together doesn’t mean that being good or bad at one automatically makes you equivalently good or bad at the other.

[May Contain Nuts]

21 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

You’ve been balanced in your posts previously @Kokosnuss, it definitely feels like you’re swaying much closer to the Warne out perspective than you used to with your recent posts and activity. 
On the above point, one of the criticisms several posters have levelled at Warne for the past year (ish) is that he doesn’t get the most out of the players at his disposal, now there’s a direct quote from one of the players commending Warne’s impact on him since he rejoined the club and you’re dismissing that as “par for the course”. Isn’t it evidence, though small in terms of sample size, that Warne can motivate and inspire at least some of the players at his disposal? Contrary to some of what people have seen, heard, understood or assumed.

 

Problem is that you're grouping my own concerns with the concerns of others.

I've never doubted Warne's motivational and/or inspirational skills just his tactical adaptability (when not forced) and at times an attitude that screams small time.

He's a winner with a loser's mentality at times. 

[May Contain Nuts]

29 minutes ago, FlyBritishMidland said:

Currently our 4th best manager based on points per game.  And after the same number of games at the same level better than Arthur Cox.

...which is great until you apply the proper context, and don't pretend that football in 2020s is the same as.football in the 1980s.

I'd expand on that but I am a few drinks in now tbh, darts night at the pub and can't be arsed to fall out with people or risking bans by going overboard.

 

Generally I'm just giving an ANALYTICAL view of things. People confuse that with a negative view because sometimes it means I sat things they do t want to hear.

 

And there's a LOT of stuff people simply refuse to hear about Warne, even when evidence on the pitch and his own testimony supports that view.

And it's bloody tedious having to defend myself to those people, who often can't actually post anything that refutes what's been said.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Kokosnuss

[Caerphilly Ram]

Just now, duncanjwitham said:

They’re unrelated in this context, because people aren’t criticising his motivational skills, they’re very specifically criticising the way he sets his teams up and the way he uses the players he has available to him.  Just because those 2 things sometimes get lumped together doesn’t mean that being good or bad at one automatically makes you equivalently good or bad at the other.

Some people have been specific in their observations and commentary on tactics, others have made very generalised comments about things like Warne’s “Why wall”, his focus on “character” in the recruitment, “wanting to be pals with the players”, forcing players to leave with his style of football, not caring about young players, damaging the dressing room with post match loose lips and so on and so forth.

So while there are some balanced posts which offer opinions on the tactics of Warne whilst acknowledging his man management skills and express valid concerns, there are plenty of others that dismiss his approach and ability to motivate the team and/or assume he is in fact having a detrimental impact on the players. Waghorn’s comments, as well as Hourihane’s recent comments on the EFL podcast suggest there is some togetherness and positivity among the group.

I’m just trusting/hoping that that, along with some sort of improved approach to or execution of the tactics will continue to propel us up the league(s) as I don’t see Warne going anywhere for a while. 

[Foreveram]

1 hour ago, Brailsford Ram said:

Yes, they were 8th when he left to come here and after that, they just managed to survive. They are near the bottom again now. Maybe the Rotherham fans are grateful he stayed for the first nine games last season rather than coming here pre-season.

And they’ve lost 6-1 to Stoke tonight.

[i-Ram]

2 hours ago, Brailsford Ram said:

I agree wholeheartedly with everything you say. But there are a lot of posters, who may or not watch the games and are not privy to what happens at Moor Farm who formulate their views against Warne by interpreting their own version of what is happening to suit their own agenda which they see as justification to call for his dismissal before he has been given sufficient time to be judged fairly. Warne has been here almost eleven months, which really should not be seen as a long time in football; but it exceeds the average lifespan of a Derby County manager over the past 10 years, which currently stands at 10 months. Maybe they have become conditioned to Mel's policy of hire them quick and fire them quicker, despite the crippling costs of contract termination which come with it; some now claim that modern contracts all contain early termination clauses in favour of the football club but we never see the evidence to support that. Would Warne really have risked leaving the haven of security he had at Rotherham for a quick year here and forego proper compensation for the remaining 75% of his unfulfilled contract? If so he's an even bigger fool than his doubters are already claiming him to be. Many of those doubters are simply too young to have seen a successful Derby football team. Anyone under 30 has seen very little of Derby in the top tier of English football and have not witnessed what it takes for the club to be successful but a lot of those people are the most vociferous critics with a we-know-best attitude on here; some older fan have forgotten what it takes.

David Clowes saw the Arthur Cox and Jim Smith years and also the disappointment and near-disaster of The Three Amigos' and Mel Morris' tenure. I hope and think that he will understand that patience is a virtue worthy of persevering with and that's why he sees the rebuilding of the club as a longer term project and not capable of being achieved by a quick-fix. I don't expect the patience of the fanbase to increase as the project proceeds and the divisions of opinion that have emerged in the past year will continue and probably increase until we reach the Premier League. Then let's hope that in the first season we accrue more than 11 points.

In the long term, it's not been easy being a supporter of Derby County for too long a time. But those of us able to say that are still here because We're Derby 'til We Die as are the rest of the fans hopefully.

Posturing, presumptive, judgemental, condescending nonsense, and some.

[Ghost of Clough]

1 hour ago, FlyBritishMidland said:

Currently our 4th best manager based on points per game.  And after the same number of games at the same level better than Arthur Cox.

7th, behind Magner, Rosenior, Mac1, Wassall, Clough and Clement. Also 7th for win percentage, with Cecil Potter moving up to 6th spot and Clement dropping down a few places.

[sage]

2 hours ago, Brailsford Ram said:

I agree wholeheartedly with everything you say. But there are a lot of posters, who may or not watch the games and are not privy to what happens at Moor Farm who formulate their views against Warne by interpreting their own version of what is happening to suit their own agenda which they see as justification to call for his dismissal before he has been given sufficient time to be judged fairly. Warne has been here almost eleven months, which really should not be seen as a long time in football; but it exceeds the average lifespan of a Derby County manager over the past 10 years, which currently stands at 10 months. Maybe they have become conditioned to Mel's policy of hire them quick and fire them quicker, despite the crippling costs of contract termination which come with it; some now claim that modern contracts all contain early termination clauses in favour of the football club but we never see the evidence to support that. Would Warne really have risked leaving the haven of security he had at Rotherham for a quick year here and forego proper compensation for the remaining 75% of his unfulfilled contract? If so he's an even bigger fool than his doubters are already claiming him to be. Many of those doubters are simply too young to have seen a successful Derby football team. Anyone under 30 has seen very little of Derby in the top tier of English football and have not witnessed what it takes for the club to be successful but a lot of those people are the most vociferous critics with a we-know-best attitude on here; some older fan have forgotten what it takes.

David Clowes saw the Arthur Cox and Jim Smith years and also the disappointment and near-disaster of The Three Amigos' and Mel Morris' tenure. I hope and think that he will understand that patience is a virtue worthy of persevering with and that's why he sees the rebuilding of the club as a longer term project and not capable of being achieved by a quick-fix. I don't expect the patience of the fanbase to increase as the project proceeds and the divisions of opinion that have emerged in the past year will continue and probably increase until we reach the Premier League. Then let's hope that in the first season we accrue more than 11 points.

In the long term, it's not been easy being a supporter of Derby County for too long a time. But those of us able to say that are still here because We're Derby 'til We Die as are the rest of the fans hopefully.

 

[i-Ram]

4 minutes ago, sage said: