Very sad news

[Grumpy Git]

Only difference when we time waste, is that we have a habit of ballsing that-up too.

Anyone remember Colin's QPR being 2-0 down at PP with 90 minutes up? 😭

 

[Mucker1884]

Playing the ball in and around the corner flag, whilst keeping... or attempting to keep... it in play is neither cheating, nor time wasting. 

Same goes for tippy-tapping along the back line around the 18 yrd box.  It's 100% down to the oppo to win the ball back.

I'm very very tempted to say it ain't even gamesmanship either, but would be happy to listen to opinions on that score.

[curb]

This and the Ipswich game have pushed me over the edge. As soon as the opposition score a goal they go into this cheating (? No not technically but it should be) mode. You might as well go home at that point, because you know what the next 87, 65, 40, 35, 20, 10* minutes are going to involve.

*delete as appropriate 

any player that rolls back onto the pitch while ‘injured’ is obviously not injured and should be sent off.

that goes for our players as well.

Edited April 11, 2023 by curb

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

10 hours ago, Steve Buckley’s Dog said:

No, I’m sorry - it’s cheating and I am sick of watching it. Eddie Howe’s Burnley team stood out as despicable cheats but now we see it every week. Players holding their heads so the ref stops the game only to have the physio look at their foot, two players simultaneously needing treatment for no reason, players crawling on to the pitch to get treatment and the weak refs that let them get away with it, shoe laces needing tying, players with cramp, players getting cramp whilst aiding other players with cramp, goalkeepers told to feign injury whilst there is an impromptu team talk and re-organisation - it’s cheating. What makes it worse are the s*** refs who happily let it happen. If you want treatment and you are on the touch line having just crawled on to the pitch, crawl off it again. I’m sick and tired of watching it and this year has been far worse than anything I can ever remember. 

I blame 1970's Leeds.  You blame them for modern Kewellesque running into a foot sideways and falling over for penos as well.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

9 hours ago, Steve Buckley’s Dog said:

I have been away so not seen / heard anything about the FGR game but if that’s true, a - he’s an idiot and b - he should be suspended (on the condition that everyone else is). My post isn’t about the fact that we didn’t win yesterday, that’s our own fault, it’s about the constant cheating we have to endure every home game we aren’t winning. Lincoln were the worst. Holding your head to stop the game, pretending you are seriously hurt in a potential life threatening way (which is why that rule was brought in) isn’t gamesmanship - it’s cheating. The refs watch it and happily see the physio rub the player’s leg - they should be booked or made to leave the pitch for a 5 minute concussion check, simple as that. It’s become endemic and second nature and needs clamping down on and isn’t really that hard to do. 

If a physio had to do a 3 page report on each injury to be filed officially it would stop. 

[bcnram]

8 hours ago, ramboy63 said:

I remember reading something about a trial of making games 60 minutes actual play

As soon as the ball leaves the field or someone is injured or substituted the clock stops and only resumes once the ball is in play,a bit like American football do it

I think if you google the average omount of time ball is in play out of 90mins the average is 55-60 mins anyway

Would stop all this time wasting

It isn’t just about wasting a minute or two, it is done to disrupt the opposition, particularly if under the Cosh. So while it will stop some, it won’t stop it all. 

[Tamworthram]

8 hours ago, ramboy63 said:

I remember reading something about a trial of making games 60 minutes actual play

As soon as the ball leaves the field or someone is injured or substituted the clock stops and only resumes once the ball is in play,a bit like American football do it

I think if you google the average omount of time ball is in play out of 90mins the average is 55-60 mins anyway

Would stop all this time wasting

I doubt it will ever happen - far too radical.

Whilst it may reduce some of the in game time wasting, there is a risk that it could increase the amount of time the ball is "dead" thus disrupting flow and extending the game well beyond 90 minutes. For example, if there is no risk of being penalised for time wasting, what's to stop a team from taking even longer getting the ball back into play if it suits them to disrupt the game?

[ramboy63]

12 hours ago, Tamworthram said:

I doubt it will ever happen - far too radical.

Whilst it may reduce some of the in game time wasting, there is a risk that it could increase the amount of time the ball is "dead" thus disrupting flow and extending the game well beyond 90 minutes. For example, if there is no risk of being penalised for time wasting, what's to stop a team from taking even longer getting the ball back into play if it suits them to disrupt the game?

Thats the whole point there is no gain in time wasting or fainting injury,you play the full 60 mins two half of 30mins when the ball is in play.

 

[ramboy63]

12 hours ago, bcnram said:

It isn’t just about wasting a minute or two, it is done to disrupt the opposition, particularly if under the Cosh. So while it will stop some, it won’t stop it all. 

Again like i said previously there is no point in time wasting the clock only starts again when the ball is in play,the time on and off is done from pitch side probably by the 4th official

Doubt this will ever happen though there would be massive objection from teams in the bottom half of most divisions as its them who seem to be at it the most,yes its gamesmanship and its part of football but it can if sorted the FA wanted to eradicate it,other than that the refs have to be bigger and stronger 

[Tamworthram]

17 minutes ago, ramboy63 said:

Thats the whole point there is no gain in time wasting or fainting injury,you play the full 60 mins two half of 30mins when the ball is in play.

 

Yes but there are potential downsides.

Time wasting tactics isn’t just about running down the clock, it’s also about disrupting momentum. If a team is under the cosh, it will suit them to take a lot longer, with no fear of being penalised, over getting the ball back into play.

Also, you need to think about how long we would be in the stadium watching nothing happening. I know it’s not the same and football would never reach those levels but look at American Football. Games are played for 60 minutes but last for hours. Imagine if teams took, on average, twice as long to get ball back in play. Using your figures, which I’m not doubting by the way, if the ball is currently out of play for 30-35 minutes, if that was doubled, we’d be watching nothing happening for an hour or more.

[richinspain]

2 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Yes but there are potential downsides.

Time wasting tactics isn’t just about running down the clock, it’s also about disrupting momentum. If a team is under the cosh, it will suit them to take a lot longer, with no fear of being penalised, over getting the ball back into play.

Also, you need to think about how long we would be in the stadium watching nothing happening. I know it’s not the same and football would never reach those levels but look at American Football. Games are played for 60 minutes but last for hours. Imagine if teams took, on average, twice as long to get ball back in play. Using your figures, which I’m not doubting by the way, if the ball is currently out of play for 30-35 minutes, if that was doubled, we’d be watching nothing happening for an hour or more.

So,a bit like watching Forest then?

[Alty_Ram]

32 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Time wasting tactics isn’t just about running down the clock, it’s also about disrupting momentum. If a team is under the cosh, it will suit them to take a lot longer, with no fear of being penalised, over getting the ball back into play.

No, exactly, it's about disruption and loss of momentum rather than getting the time back in 1 minute chunks before yet another player just sits down and appeal for 'treatment' for their 'injury'.

Problem is that I just don't know how you could get around refs having to err on the side of caution and take injuries seriously. If they didn't then at some stage they'll get it wrong and it turning into an ugly legal wrangle for negligence as someone is genuinely injured. Remember Seth and the Wembley final - the WBA fans were convinced that he was faking it but he was badly hurt and that was basically it for him. I messed my knee up a few years back and tore my medial meniscus and all I did was over-straighten my leading leg while planting it as I walked down some uneven steps. Nobody with me could understand how I'd managed to mess myself up because I was just walking down some steps.

It'd be nice to think that if the refs weren't happy that an injury was genuine that say they'd double the time added on that the player was down or something but it requires a snap decision from someone (the ref) who has less medical knowledge than the physio so it'd never happen.

The best solution to this is obviously to be 5-0 up and not have to worry about opposition running the clock down on you 😉

[Tamworthram]

7 minutes ago, Alty_Ram said:

No, exactly, it's about disruption and loss of momentum rather than getting the time back in 1 minute chunks before yet another player just sits down and appeal for 'treatment' for their 'injury'.

Problem is that I just don't know how you could get around refs having to err on the side of caution and take injuries seriously. If they didn't then at some stage they'll get it wrong and it turning into an ugly legal wrangle for negligence as someone is genuinely injured. Remember Seth and the Wembley final - the WBA fans were convinced that he was faking it but he was badly hurt and that was basically it for him. I messed my knee up a few years back and tore my medial meniscus and all I did was over-straighten my leading leg while planting it as I walked down some uneven steps. Nobody with me could understand how I'd managed to mess myself up because I was just walking down some steps.

It'd be nice to think that if the refs weren't happy that an injury was genuine that say they'd double the time added on that the player was down or something but it requires a snap decision from someone (the ref) who has less medical knowledge than the physio so it'd never happen.

The best solution to this is obviously to be 5-0 up and not have to worry about opposition running the clock down on you 😉

The one Change I'd probably like to see is, if a player goes down "injured" and the game has to be stopped then, unless it's the result of a foul, they should have to go off for treatment. None of this dropping to the floor, rubbing their head/knee/whatever for a bit and then getting up to and carrying on. Also, book a player if he rolls back on the pitch just to stop the game.

[MadAmster]

23 hours ago, TomTom92 said:

Whilst its frustrating for us because we're a top 10 side that will dominate most matches. I'd have no issue with us playing the dark arts especially if we saw the benefits to them.

There's no point complaining too much about them because it happens in every division in every league. Its part and parcel of the game and whilst things may be introduced to combat some of the issues, loopholes will always be found.

The sooner we can get out of this league and therefore be in a position where teams aren't playing for a draw at Pride Park the better. 

Maybe so, but it shouldn't be. Calling it "Dark Arts" is little more than an attempt to validate something I prefer to call by its real name, namely, cheating. Cheating should never be part of the game.

[MadAmster]

15 hours ago, Boycie said:

Didn’t one of our players roll back on the pitch last Friday? Was it Forsyth?

I believe it was and he shouldn't have done it.

[Guest]

On 11/04/2023 at 10:25, Steve Buckley’s Dog said:

I have been away so not seen / heard anything about the FGR game but if that’s true, a - he’s an idiot and b - he should be suspended (on the condition that everyone else is). My post isn’t about the fact that we didn’t win yesterday, that’s our own fault, it’s about the constant cheating we have to endure every home game we aren’t winning. Lincoln were the worst. Holding your head to stop the game, pretending you are seriously hurt in a potential life threatening way (which is why that rule was brought in) isn’t gamesmanship - it’s cheating. The refs watch it and happily see the physio rub the player’s leg - they should be booked or made to leave the pitch for a 5 minute concussion check, simple as that. It’s become endemic and second nature and needs clamping down on and isn’t really that hard to do. 

Players holding their faces and heads is/was a learnt behaviour.  When I hit my thumb with a hammer, I don’t hold my head or face - I hold my thumb.  It’s instinctive to hold what hurts.  For my sins I also go to watch Leicester Tigers,  the players do get injured, but don’t generally seem to behave in the same way as football players do -why?  Football Players were/are coached either by direct or indirect means to hold their heads and faces when they go down to force the ref to stop the game due to the risk of a head injury being overlooked.  Therefore what has been learnt can be “unlearnt” with the right persuasion in terms of loosing the player for 5 minutes if in any circumstances they get injured and hold their face and head or are unresponsive.  It becomes the safest option for the officials, and should deter the sort of silliness we see….

[TomTom92]

3 minutes ago, MadAmster said:

Maybe so, but it shouldn't be. Calling it "Dark Arts" is little more than an attempt to validate something I prefer to call by its real name, namely, cheating. Cheating should never be part of the game.

Every sport probably has 'cheating' people will go to any lengths to win and especially when big finances are at stake.

[MadAmster]

19 minutes ago, TomTom92 said:

Every sport probably has 'cheating' people will go to any lengths to win and especially when big finances are at stake.

... and that makes it right/acceptable? Going back almost 50 years, I never liked Franny Lee diving. Even when he played for us. 

[TomTom92]

17 minutes ago, MadAmster said:

... and that makes it right/acceptable? Going back almost 50 years, I never liked Franny Lee diving. Even when he played for us. 

Fair play to you then, you're clearly a man of integrity. However, i'm a man of realism and what's good for the goose is good for the gander. 

Would i rather see us with a cup in our hand after using dark arts or losing out with integrity i know which one i'd take. Of course the third option is to go up with integrity but you have to be a very good team to win fair and square without any sporting edges. 

[Tamworthram]

55 minutes ago, TomTom92 said:

Every sport probably has 'cheating' people will go to any lengths to win and especially when big finances are at stake.

I'm pretty certain that cheating in the likes of golf and snooker is very rare. Even in rugby (both codes) players may try to get away with a breach of the rules but I don't recall them feigning injury very often. 

Football doesn't have a monopoly on cheating and unsporting behaviour but I would say it is more prevalent by a long way.

I wish officials would clamp down on players and coaches/managers abusing them or speaking to them in an overly aggressive way but I heard an interesting claim on the radio this morning - referees at the lower levels are reluctant to dish out too many yellow cards because the managers of the teams have to assess their performance. Too many negative reviews (potentially caused by the managers perceived excessive issue of cards) will affect their ability to be promoted up the football pyramid.  It's a bit like teachers annual pay rises being partly based on pupils assessment of their teaching.