Very sad news

[ramboy63]

2 hours ago, Tamworthram said:

Yes but there are potential downsides.

Time wasting tactics isn’t just about running down the clock, it’s also about disrupting momentum. If a team is under the cosh, it will suit them to take a lot longer, with no fear of being penalised, over getting the ball back into play.

Also, you need to think about how long we would be in the stadium watching nothing happening. I know it’s not the same and football would never reach those levels but look at American Football. Games are played for 60 minutes but last for hours. Imagine if teams took, on average, twice as long to get ball back in play. Using your figures, which I’m not doubting by the way, if the ball is currently out of play for 30-35 minutes, if that was doubled, we’d be watching nothing happening for an hour or more.

Yes granted nothing is perfect,the two main ones for me is goal kicks and players lying down as if they had been shot all that would pretty much go out of the game everything is on the clock,you may be right in the terms of time 30 minutes play would take although what would be the point in time wasting at all if its all down to when the ball is in play,below i have copied the article i read a while ago based on the Premiership,makes interesting reading.In fact the average is below 55 minutes when the ball is in play which raises another issue are we as supporters being short changed given how much we pay for our season tickets?

 

Ball in play season by season

This season's ball in play average is the lowest the Premier League has seen since 2010-11.

It's down one minute and 19 seconds from last season, and a minute 40 seconds on the 2013-14 campaign's average.

But there has been less than an hour's play for as long as Opta has been collecting the data.

Ball in play in the Premier League

Season    Minutes- Seconds

2006-07  53-28

2007-08  53-48

2008-09  54-33

2009-10  53-25

2010-11   54-16

2011-12   55-53

2012-13  56- 23

2013-14  56-43

2014-15  56-22

2015-16  56-10

2016-17  55-51

2017-18  56-11

2018-19  55-31

2019-20  55-49

2020-21  56-22

2021-22   55-30

[Ram-Alf]

1 hour ago, MadAmster said:

Maybe so, but it shouldn't be. Calling it "Dark Arts" is little more than an attempt to validate something I prefer to call by its real name, namely, cheating. Cheating should never be part of the game.

Well it's not cheating so there, How do I know this, I watch football on TV, The commentators and co commentators who I have the greatest respect for 😁...call it...wait for it...Gamesmanship

Gamesmanship is the use of dubious (although not technically illegal) methods to win or gain a serious advantage in a game or sport. It has been described as "Pushing the rules to the limit without getting caught, using whatever dubious methods possible to achieve the desired end.

The supporter only wants to hear 1 commentator to say..."Cheating" and the World of Football will go up quicker than a Greek Bakery.

[Tamworthram]

5 minutes ago, ramboy63 said:

Yes granted nothing is perfect,the two main ones for me is goal kicks and players lying down as if they had been shot all that would pretty much go out of the game everything is on the clock,you may be right in the terms of time 30 minutes play would take although what would be the point in time wasting at all if its all down to when the ball is in play,below i have copied the article i read a while ago based on the Premiership,makes interesting reading.In fact the average is below 55 minutes when the ball is in play which raises another issue are we as supporters being short changed given how much we pay for our season tickets?

 

Ball in play season by season

This season's ball in play average is the lowest the Premier League has seen since 2010-11.

It's down one minute and 19 seconds from last season, and a minute 40 seconds on the 2013-14 campaign's average.

But there has been less than an hour's play for as long as Opta has been collecting the data.

Ball in play in the Premier League

Season    Minutes- Seconds

2006-07  53-28

2007-08  53-48

2008-09  54-33

2009-10  53-25

2010-11   54-16

2011-12   55-53

2012-13  56- 23

2013-14  56-43

2014-15  56-22

2015-16  56-10

2016-17  55-51

2017-18  56-11

2018-19  55-31

2019-20  55-49

2020-21  56-22

2021-22   55-30

You seem to be ignoring the point that a few of us are making. Time wasting isn't just about running the clock down which, as you say, would be pointless if the clock was stopped every time the ball wasn't live. It's also about disrupting momentum. How often do you see a player going down injured off the ball when a team is under the cosh? I'm pretty sure that if I was a manager of a team under pressure that got a throw in or a goal kick, I'd be telling my team to take their time in order to try and take the sting out of the attacks or slow the game down.

[ramboy63]

2 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

You seem to be ignoring the point that a few of us are making. Time wasting isn't just about running the clock down which, as you say, would be pointless if the clock was stopped every time the ball wasn't live. It's also about disrupting momentum. How often do you see a player going down injured off the ball when a team is under the cosh? I'm pretty sure that if I was a manager of a team under pressure that got a throw in or a goal kick, I'd be telling my team to take their time in order to try and take the sting out of the attacks or slow the game down.

But your missing the point why tell a player to take there time when the clock as stopped yes granted momentum would be lost but isnt it  anyway at present

As for injured players going down this is were the referee needs to do his job properly,head injuries yes anything else wait until the ball is dead

[TomTom92]

26 minutes ago, ramboy63 said:

But your missing the point why tell a player to take there time when the clock as stopped yes granted momentum would be lost but isnt it  anyway at present

As for injured players going down this is were the referee needs to do his job properly,head injuries yes anything else wait until the ball is dead

I think everyone is right in this debate. The stop clock would mean that a 'full' match is completed and therefore nobody could feel cheated on that front. But @Tamworthram is right in saying that injuries are used to take the sting out of the game and this wouldn't stop.

But maybe the authorities can only smarten up some areas of the game and we'll have to accept that some areas will always be blurred by 'gamesmanship'. 

[Tamworthram]

52 minutes ago, ramboy63 said:

But your missing the point why tell a player to take there time when the clock as stopped yes granted momentum would be lost but isnt it  anyway at present

As for injured players going down this is were the referee needs to do his job properly,head injuries yes anything else wait until the ball is dead

Yes but my point is a longer delay (because there is no risk of being penalised due to time wasting) is likely to have a greater impact on the opposing teams momentum and help take the sting out of any attacking period of play they may be enjoying. The current levels of time wasting is of course disruptive but, I suspect the amount of time the ball is dead would be worse if the clock is stopped.

Agreed regarding players going down injured. Referees need to apply the rules unless, as you say, it’s a clear and obvious potential head or other serious injury the game should be stopped. Once the ball is dead then the player should go off for treatment immediately. If he was badly injured enough to go down as if he’s been hit by a sniper then he’s not fit enough to carry on without treatment.

I don’t think there is any easy answer and we may need to just accept it’s going to happen and every team, including Derby, will deploy such tactics to varying degrees.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Tamworthram

[Alty_Ram]

1 hour ago, Tamworthram said:

You seem to be ignoring the point that a few of us are making. Time wasting isn't just about running the clock down which, as you say, would be pointless if the clock was stopped every time the ball wasn't live. It's also about disrupting momentum. How often do you see a player going down injured off the ball when a team is under the cosh? I'm pretty sure that if I was a manager of a team under pressure that got a throw in or a goal kick, I'd be telling my team to take their time in order to try and take the sting out of the attacks or slow the game down.

And if you have spent several minutes of desperate defending, throwing yourself in the way of shots against relentless pressure then it is knackering, so someone gets 'cramp' and the embattled defence gets a nice breather and a chance to regain shape, push out and move the defensive line up a few metres, pep talk from the skipper and pass on instructions on from the bench and the crowd stand around with their hands in their pockets for a few mins and the intensity of the atmosphere probably dips as everyone is just standing around waiting to resume, although as a South Stander, hurling abuse at he play-acting player can help fill the time..

Momentum in games is hugely important and these tactics are designed specifically to stifle it.

[Steve Buckley’s Dog]

The simple solution is to let me become judge and jury and if I deem anyone to be cheating then I have the power to ban them for a number of games of my choosing as well as letting someone give them a good kicking so they actually are injured. After serious consideration I cannot see any flaws with this idea. 

[Tamworthram]

8 minutes ago, Steve Buckley’s Dog said:

The simple solution is to let me become judge and jury and if I deem anyone to be cheating then I have the power to ban them for a number of games of my choosing as well as letting someone give them a good kicking so they actually are injured. After serious consideration I cannot see any flaws with this idea. 

I think you'd be too soft and unbiased. The job should be given to B4 😀

[Steve Buckley’s Dog]

1 minute ago, Tamworthram said:

I think you'd be too soft and unbiased. The job should be given to B4 😀

If any player went down ‘injured’ and started to bang his hand against the grass as if death was imminent, I would authorise a sniper on the roof of the stand to conduct a mercy killing. I guarantee that after a weekend of this there would not be a single incident of this kind of behaviour again. 

[Alty_Ram]

7 minutes ago, Steve Buckley’s Dog said:

If any player went down ‘injured’ and started to bang his hand against the grass as if death was imminent, I would authorise a sniper on the roof of the stand to conduct a mercy killing. I guarantee that after a weekend of this there would not be a single incident of this kind of behaviour again. 

Heads on spikes as you run out of the tunnel of any offenders from previous game? Time to have gone a bit stinky and had plenty of crow attention ?

[uttoxram75]

42 minutes ago, Steve Buckley’s Dog said:

The simple solution is to let me become judge and jury and if I deem anyone to be cheating then I have the power to ban them for a number of games of my choosing as well as letting someone give them a good kicking so they actually are injured. After serious consideration I cannot see any flaws with this idea. 

 

28 minutes ago, Steve Buckley’s Dog said:

If any player went down ‘injured’ and started to bang his hand against the grass as if death was imminent, I would authorise a sniper on the roof of the stand to conduct a mercy killing. I guarantee that after a weekend of this there would not be a single incident of this kind of behaviour again. 

Like it.

Just in case you miss anything I'd be willing to do the VAR for you.

[Dethorn]

I would say medics come on without stopping the game

Also substitutions happen in live play - watch those players withdrawn running off then, give the 4th official something useful to do too

Any player who goes down injured has to go off for a full health and safety check which should take a  minimum of 2 minutes and a sub is not allowed until the two minutes is up either - bit like a shortened version of the HIA in rugby but without a replacement, should be extra careful of injuries around these valuable players, Health and safety fans would love it.

Yellow cards for diving/simulation - second one is red obviously and normal suspensions apply

One minute of stoppage time added for each act of time wasting including during the stoppage time

[Steve Buckley’s Dog]

8 minutes ago, uttoxram75 said:

 

Like it.

Just in case you miss anything I'd be willing to do the VAR for you.

Good idea. Shoot them as they make their way to the team bus in case I missed anything. 

[uttoxram75]

Just now, Steve Buckley’s Dog said:

Good idea. Shoot them as they make their way to the team bus in case I missed anything. 

Before the game?

[Steve Buckley’s Dog]

29 minutes ago, Alty_Ram said:

Heads on spikes as you run out of the tunnel of any offenders from previous game? Time to have gone a bit stinky and had plenty of crow attention ?

I think you’ve taken a serious and. sensible solution a little too far there! 

[Steve Buckley’s Dog]

1 minute ago, uttoxram75 said:

Before the game?

Why not. Let’s live a little. 

[MadAmster]

Here's some views of mine...

 

1. VAR. Not the idea of it as I'm with that all the way. What I want is for the FA/EFL/PL (and I realise it's not being used in the EFL at the moment) to use it as it was intended to be used as opposed to the current "look what we can do" attitude. The stated use in the FIFA regs on VAR is clear and concise and I would not extend the scope There are 4 areas the VAR should look at, however, it is intended to prevent CLEAR AND OBVIOUS ERRORS.
Put a time limit on VAR reviews. If you can't tell it's offside inside, for instance, 30 seconds (or a different time period) then it's not clear nor is it obvious and the original decision should stand. Taking 4 minutes to decide that an attacker’s little toe was 2mm offside is neither clear nor obvious.

2. Players going down "injured" to take the momentum away from the opposition. Allow the physio/doctor onto the field of play to tend to the player whilst play continues. The physio/doc has to go round the pitch to the point on a line closest to the "injured" player. The player is tended where he lies. When the treatment is finished, the player and the physio/doc leave the field at the nearest point (the same one, logically as where the p/d entered the field of play. The player, if he is going to continue, makes his way to the halfway line and waits to be ushered on by the ref. It works in Rugby and would stop this particular version of “game management” in football. Fans are of the opinion that it’s designed to take the flow of the game away from the opposition and is unsporting cheating.

3. Players not immediately retiring 10 yards (9m 15cm). The team penalised tries to prevent the opposition gaining an advantage by taking the kick quickly. You’ve broken the Laws, been penalised and are preventing the opposition from, legally, taking a free kick. Unsporting cheating in my view. It needs stopping.

4. The all in wrestling that takes part inside the box at free kicks and corners. It’s against the Laws of the game so simply stop it by using the powers refs already have. This is one where the Laws might need changing. Last season I saw a player heavily thrown to the ground in the area whilst awaiting the taking of a corner. No penalty because the ball wasn’t yet in play. It caused uproar in the crowd. According to the Laws, the referee was right. How can it be acceptable that a player gets thrown on his back at a corner?

5. Diving. There is still too much of it going on for my liking. The powers are there to penalise it. Refs should use those powers more often. This is another where a wording change may be necessary. It used to be that contact had to be seen to have caused the player to go over. Causality has been removed from the Laws. In my opinion it needs putting back. Penalties are being given when feather-like contact has been made. I’d give a yellow card for diving.

6. Players picking up the ball so the opposition can’t take a quick free kick or throw. Unsporting. Preventing a quick restart.

 

7. Timewasting. Players taking an age with a throw and stealing 15 or more yards. Keepers taking up to a minute to take a goal kick. Unsporting.

 

8. Lack of consistency by refs. Not only one ref doing the same as other refs but also a ref being consistent with similar offences throughout a game. I’m not sure how to solve this one. Maybe weekly meetings where referees come together to view moments from the weekend’s games and come to a consensus of the correct way to deal with such a situation. Personally, I’d go further. Now Referees are full time, I’d love them to review all contentious incidents from a round of games. Obviously, the result couldn’t be changed, however, errors could be discussed and the way forward with similar incidents could be agreed. Wrongly given cards could be rescinded. Cards, wrongly, not given could be awarded. That might stop players taking a risk, thinking the referee might either not see it or not view it as a card. Basically, no hiding place for a player.

 

9. 6 second rule. Enforce it unless the keeper is being “harried” by an opponent. Another instance of time wasting. Some away sides are trying to eat up time from the kick off. It’s not something even their own supporters want to see.

 

Anything that increases the actual playing time should be seen as beneficial to the game.

 

I think that, apart from the "allowing the physio on and play continues", none of the above requires Law changes. Simply enforce the Laws that are already in place.

[MadAmster]

2 hours ago, The Last Post said:

Well it's not cheating so there, How do I know this, I watch football on TV, The commentators and co commentators who I have the greatest respect for 😁...call it...wait for it...Gamesmanship

 

The same pundits most fans think are a waste of space?  🤣🤣

[Sparkle]

They don’t even bother to hold their heads in this league they just sit down and wait for the referee to blow their whistle and everybody else leaves the football pitch for a lovely chat.

Against Ipswich it was hilarious we had a period in the game where Ipswich were second best and their manager shouted for one of them to hit the deck and instantly two of them followed the order (and the nearest) and dropped like flies - the Referees know what is happening and they should just let the game play on but they haven’t got the bottle to play on - players know when someone is properly injured or not.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Sparkle