Overcrowding in Leppings Lane end, Hillsborough

[RadioactiveWaste]

So, there was maybe a stewarding issue or some things to learn and can be done better but it's being blown up beyond its true significance for obvious reasons....is that fair enough @walkleyowl

[Wolfie]

Why is it a stewarding problem that a few thousand idiot fans decide to ignore seat allocations and just gather where they like?. You'd need a lot of stewards to deal with that. Would you fancy being the one telling 300 drunk geordies that they've got to go to their allocated seat?!

As others have said, the authorities / clubs need to get a hold of this or safe standing will be dead before it starts.

[sage]

18 minutes ago, Wolfie said:

Why is it a stewarding problem that a few thousand idiot fans decide to ignore seat allocations and just gather where they like?. You'd need a lot of stewards to deal with that. Would you fancy being the one telling 300 drunk geordies that they've got to go to their allocated seat?!

As others have said, the authorities / clubs need to get a hold of this or safe standing will be dead before it starts.

or have access to the length of the stand at various points rather than one central scrum you have to fight your way out of. 

Sheff Wed were incredibly lucky to get away at lightly as they did in 89. That stand should have been torn down or drastically redesigned. 

[Mucker1884]

9 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

How clear is the signage when you're in a large crowd?
I don't see the problem coming from people wanting to stand wherever they like. It seems quite obvious to me that the issue to poor design and layout of the stand and the approach to it.
Stewarding inside and outside the ground is also a problem. If I remember my last visit correctly (2020), our seats were much closer to the left corner flag than the goal, but the stewards ushered me towards the middle entrance "because it was too busy on the left". Totally ignoring the fact we then had to push our way through the crowds inside the concourse to get to our correct stairs.

I'd not argue with you final paragraph.  It's been well over a decade (probably closer to two?) since I was last there, and I really don't recall how good... or not... the stewarding was back then.

 

However:
How clear is the signage when you're in a large crowd?
From the few pics I've seen, it appears to be as clear as it needs to be?  Above head height.  Clearly written (Seat Numbers), and with directional arrows to boot!
I was at the back of the stand for my first/only trip to Wembley (v Villa).  Ramps, stairs, along concourses, left here, right there... and more stairs into the seated area.  Boom!  Nailed it first time!  Go me!  
How do we manage getting through airports and railway stations that we may have never been to before, or they've been done up to a point where they are unrecognisable from your last visit?  I've never gone to gate B, when my info states gate A!  
I'm no world traveller (sadly!), but I've coped admirably at Malaga & Schiphol airports to name just two.  Even coped with the Train station next door to Schiphol... and Covent Garden Tube, come to think of it.
Hotel rooms?
The only time I can recall getting lost (when the info has been available) was when I was looking for a classroom at Wilmorton College... Turns out I was meant to be at the Normo Road site!  ?  (That's a very long and boring story, but trust me, I have a perfectly acceptable excuse, even for that!) ?

 

I don't see the problem coming from people wanting to stand wherever they like.  It seems quite obvious to me that the issue to poor design and layout of the stand and the approach to it.

(I almost misinterpreted the first sentence, but I think I understand what you are saying, with the two sentences combined!)
It is clear from the pics that some are doing just that... going through the tunnel, then stopping!  Dead!  In their tracks!  Standing on the central aisle.  At the mouth of the tunnel.  Wantonly oblivious to the fact that there are more folk behind them wishing to take the same route, in a vain attempt to reach their allocated seating.

Yes, It's a pile up, but if those at the front keep moving, then those in the middle can keep moving, then those at the back can keep moving, then those stuck in the tunnel can keep moving!
OK, you could argue it is only the front 4 or 5 who are blocking the staircase/Aisle, and the rest are stuck with nowhere to go, but that still amounts to 4 or 5 people "standing where they want" (as opposed to dozens/scores?)

(This is not April 1989.  There are no pens.  No fencing.  No possibility of restricted areas becoming overcrowded, whilst other areas remain sparse.  This is one large area big enough to accommodate the allocated numbers).

That is not a design fault.  It is DNA (Yoof)!  It's evolution in reverse!  Stupidity?  Selfishness? Coke?  Booze?  I've no idea. But this is on the collective individuals endangering the innocent. 
This is 2023.  H&S has been sticking it's middle digit up our arses for nigh on 3 decades (Before that, it was just the little pinky!).  Are you seriously suggesting this stand fails from an H&S perspective, and yet is still allowed to remain operational?  And a stand with such horrific history?  Seriously?

I suppose you could argue "If it can go wrong, it is dangerous.  If accidents can happen, then that possibility must be eradicated (if practicable) or minimised to the max!  If the aisles can be blocked, then they must be widened and/or added to".
Fair comment.  Difficult to argue... except to say that every single football stadium needs to be closed with immediate effect.  Not one of them is 100% safe... particularly once human beings are let in!

Sometimes, humans just need to do the right/sensible/honourable/decent/thoughtful/considerate thing, and show some common sense and good manners!    

 

 

[Mucker1884]

4 minutes ago, sage said:

or have access to the length of the stand at various points rather than one central scrum you have to fight your way out of. 

 

I'm of the understanding there are access points at each end, in addition to the central tunnel?  So three in total?  
Apologies if that's not correct.

[Tamworthram]

14 hours ago, walkleyowl said:

The stand should have gone in 89 but the FA refused to pay for it as they would be seen as taking the blame, remember the ground was basically hired to them for the game.

The stand was 66% capacity on both tiers so not a chance of overcrowding, the issue was idiots blocking the entrance. 

The stadium is dated but the concourse is less of an issue than say at QPR. The corner end of your place gets a tad snug I'd full on the concourse.

Genuine question, why would you expect the FA to pay for the upgrade to any football clubs stand?

Even if the FA had taken the blame(probably best not reignite that argument) upgrading the stand after the event doesn’t feel like it should have been their responsibility to me. The FA response should have been (and may have been, I can’t remember now) to either stop using the ground or reduce the capacity until/unless Wednesday implemented improvements.

[Sparkle]

5 hours ago, Tamworthram said:

Genuine question, why would you expect the FA to pay for the upgrade to any football clubs stand?

Even if the FA had taken the blame(probably best not reignite that argument) upgrading the stand after the event doesn’t feel like it should have been their responsibility to me. The FA response should have been (and may have been, I can’t remember now) to either stop using the ground or reduce the capacity until/unless Wednesday implemented improvements.

The last time it was updated ( or painted based on my last visit) was for the 1966 World Cup and was paid for by the taxman 

[Mick Brolly]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-64943981

Away capacity reduced 

 

 

[oodledoodle]

I can't see for the life of me how that stand at Hillsborough is bad and needs reducing, when you've got away ends like Portsmouth, Luton etc deemed as fine. Maybe they're all a bit dated and maybe they all need looking at.

[Day]

I thought I read they were cleared of any wrongdoing, this would suggest otherwise though?

1000 less is a chunk of change less in the back pocket for the bigger games, not sure it will be a big enough incentive to make structural changes until they make it into the top flight again. 

[angieram]

As I said on the other thread, the upper stand is a real problem, given the narrow nature of the stairs from the concourse up into the seats. There is no room to pass on them and it would be virtually impossible to evacuate quickly if needed.

I'm sort of reassured that the capacity up there has been further reduced.

Will this mean they give us the lower tier as well as the upper? They don't usually.

BTW, I have a friend who is a SW supporter and he says it's a deliberate policy not to improve facilities for the away fans as they don't want us to enjoy the experience. 

 

[Foreveram]

1 hour ago, angieram said:

As I said on the other thread, the upper stand is a real problem, given the narrow nature of the stairs from the concourse up into the seats. There is no room to pass on them and it would be virtually impossible to evacuate quickly if needed.

I'm sort of reassured that the capacity up there has been further reduced.

Will this mean they give us the lower tier as well as the upper? They don't usually.

BTW, I have a friend who is a SW supporter and he says it's a deliberate policy not to improve facilities for the away fans as they don't want us to enjoy the experience. 

 

Presumably the same policy employed at the City ground.

[Crewton]

2 hours ago, angieram said:

BTW, I have a friend who is a SW supporter and he says it's a deliberate policy not to improve facilities for the away fans as they don't want us to enjoy the experience. 

If this is actually true, that they have a deliberate policy, that's scandalous - and I'd say that if it turned out that DCFC had the same policy too - particularly as they charge away fans the same price as home fans for "equivalent areas".

That said, although I haven't been to Hillsborough since Lampard's season, the only thing I found offensive about the stadium compared to others was the painfully bright electric advertising boards around the pitch. Gave me an 'effin' migraine!

[Tamworthram]

13 hours ago, angieram said:

As I said on the other thread, the upper stand is a real problem, given the narrow nature of the stairs from the concourse up into the seats. There is no room to pass on them and it would be virtually impossible to evacuate quickly if needed.

I'm sort of reassured that the capacity up there has been further reduced.

Will this mean they give us the lower tier as well as the upper? They don't usually.

BTW, I have a friend who is a SW supporter and he says it's a deliberate policy not to improve facilities for the away fans as they don't want us to enjoy the experience. 

 

Whilst this could well be true I find it hard to believe and even harder to believe that they have been so public about it that their supporters know (unless your friend has a reason to be ITK). I wouldn't be surprised if they are priorising the improvement of facilities for the home supporters but only because they care more about them and not because they deliberately want to make visiting Hillsborough a bad experience.

[angieram]

9 hours ago, Tamworthram said:

Whilst this could well be true I find it hard to believe and even harder to believe that they have been so public about it that their supporters know (unless your friend has a reason to be ITK). I wouldn't be surprised if they are priorising the improvement of facilities for the home supporters but only because they care more about them and not because they deliberately want to make visiting Hillsborough a bad experience.

You always argue the opposite point of view and all the other stands have been improved.

And yes, he is ITK.

[Tamworthram]

5 minutes ago, angieram said:

You always argue the opposite point of view and all the other stands have been improved.

And yes, he is ITK.

Fair enough if he is ITK.

Actually, I don’t ALWAYS argue the opposite. Surely you’d agree that if you hadn’t heard this from a reliable source you’d find it incredulous that the club were deliberately trying to worsen the experience of visiting supporters. I just said I found it hard to believe not that I didn’t believe you.

[Foreveram]

22 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Fair enough if he is ITK.

Actually, I don’t ALWAYS argue the opposite. Surely you’d agree that if you hadn’t heard this from a reliable source you’d find it incredulous that the club were deliberately trying to worsen the experience of visiting supporters. I just said I found it hard to believe not that I didn’t believe you.

When Fatwaz was at Florist he cut the away allocation down to 2,000 from 3,000, stating that he wanted to discourage the away fans, even though they couldn’t fill the ground themselves.

 

 

[Simmo’s left foot]

Once again its all down to the behaviour of some fans, turning up full of ale, or coke, standing where they like, ignoring seat allocations. These idiots will ruin it for the majority of fans who just want to watch the game. What will happen when a large stand moves to safe standing, and people push into whatever gap they can find, including gangways, or squeezing two into the space meant for one?

It does sound like the design of the stadium at that end is awful, and reducing the numbers as has now happened was way overdue.

Its not being dealt with by the clubs/stewards/police/councils. I for one would love to visit some away grounds, but I won't given the stories coming out. They should have stopped the game until the Newcastle fans were in there allocated seats, and sat down. Fail to do so and forfeit the game. simple.

Edited March 16, 2023 by Simmo’s left foot

[Leeds Ram]

In fairness, I've been to Hillsborough a fair few times and never had an issue. That's been when we've taken big crowds as well as smaller ones. Don't see it as any more dangerous than any other older stadium (Barnsley, Luton, Sheffield United etc.) and they have all been as dangerous or worse than Hillsborough tbh. I don't buy the idea for a minute they're not making improvements because they want to make fans uncomfortable, it's one thing to cut down allocations or not have the greatest amenities but quite another to potentially put fans at risk. 

I do think the older stadiums and fan culture puts a significant strain on the argument for safe standing. Some fans and a large enough percentage to make a difference, just cannot be trusted to behave. Stewarding needs to be improved upon, if idiots aren't willing to stand or sit in their allotted space, they should be thrown out. This requires more stewards to implement said changes. But I think after a few times it would restore order generally, from what I've experienced on trains the moment the cops actually do something they all wet themselves and shut up. 

I also think there needs to be a review of all older stadia and discuss their feasibility moving forward. If clubs can't afford to make the necessary adjustments, then plans should be made by the FA and government to subsidise the changes. Plenty of lower league stadiums, when full to capacity, are a bit of an accident waiting to happen- look at Lincoln, Peterborough (before the seating), Barnsley etc. 

Edited March 16, 2023 by Leeds Ram

[Simmo’s left foot]

20 hours ago, Leeds Ram said:

then plans should be made by the FA and government to subsidise the changes.

Why should it be down to the government to subsidise it? Plenty of money swilling around in the premier league, and championship clubs paying far too high a wage to many players. Football should fix itself.