uttoxram75 Posted April 17, 2023 Share Posted April 17, 2023 1 hour ago, David said: They really are doing a cracking job of alienating the population and any chance of gaining wider support outside the tree hugging community Its almost as if the oil business funds them for that very reason........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted April 17, 2023 Share Posted April 17, 2023 57 minutes ago, Archied said: I havnt seen a young working class black , Asian or white representation, it’s all retired librarians, teachers and students on a gap year , stunning they have now been conned by the usual suspects into believing that the way to save the planet is spend spend spend , tax tax tax , growth growth growth , make more , throw more away , transfer the wealth more away from the have nots than ever before , restore the privilege of the well off to fly , drive , travel ect ect ect without the plebs getting in the way , sad thing is it’s actually decent we’ll meaning people who are having they’re decency exploited and being filled with anxiety and impending doom I'm not sure whose message that is, but it's not any environmentalists that I recognize. The actual message is more like, in order to save the planet (more correctly prevent serious damage to our civilization) we need to stop burning fossil fuels in our own countries and all over the world. No more, no less. I've no idea how ruining a snooker match is going to help....seems to me, snooker is already a boring enough watch without making all the balls orange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 7 hours ago, Carl Sagan said: I think it's a form of mental illness. They've been "radicalized" and behave as if in a cult. The problem is they do it with impunity, and the largesse of the legal system. The best moment of recent years was when they were chased over the roofs of electric trains in London by angry commuters wanting to use sustainable transport to go to work. We need more of the general public refusing to put up with this idiocy. Dragging them off the streets etc, like we see in other countries where they don't indulge the madness. You are spot on, ive said before that I actually feel for some of our youngsters mental and emotional state Carl Sagan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 (edited) 7 hours ago, Highgate said: I'm not sure whose message that is, but it's not any environmentalists that I recognize. The actual message is more like, in order to save the planet (more correctly prevent serious damage to our civilization) we need to stop burning fossil fuels in our own countries and all over the world. No more, no less. I've no idea how ruining a snooker match is going to help....seems to me, snooker is already a boring enough watch without making all the balls orange. Believe it or not I actually read your posts , listen to your points , agree with some and have respect for the way you put them across although it’s very clear we disagree on the way forward and the motives of those pushing the course we are on , I don’t know your age but if your similar to mine I do find it hard to understand how some of the stuff you bolded in your reply to my post doesn’t make you wonder just a little bit about how being green and saving the planet has switched from consuming less to being forced to throw away everything and consume on a massive scale stuff that when properly looked at is no greener long term than what we have already, the mayor of london for example raises the anxiety and fervour in decent caring people with outright lies about 4000 deaths a year from air pollution in london in order to fill the money gap in tfl caused by his terrible running of it and calls out publicly anyone who sees through him as far right , conspiracy theorists , covid deniers , anti vaxers ect ect ect , heat pumps will not work in this countries housing stock and millions in grants are being given to those who can afford them anyway taken from the taxes of those that can’t and struggle to afford to switch they’re boiler on , apparently they’re are more heat pumps installed in Cornish holiday homes than there are in the whole of Birmingham don’t even get me on to electric cars the whole thing is money spinning madness under the cloak of a decent aim that we all agree with , ie making the planet better and more sustainable Edited April 18, 2023 by Archied Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 7 hours ago, Stive Pesley said: Turns out that Orange baize looks nice though - they should adopt that for all future tournaments Tonight Matthew, I'm going to be... ... Andy Bell, from Erasure. Wolfie, angieram, Stive Pesley and 2 others 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i-Ram Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 8 hours ago, Stive Pesley said: Turns out that Orange baize looks nice though - they should adopt that for all future tournaments He does seem rather ‘excited’ by his actions. Stive Pesley 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 7 hours ago, Archied said: Believe it or not I actually read your posts , listen to your points , agree with some and have respect for the way you put them across although it’s very clear we disagree on the way forward and the motives of those pushing the course we are on , I don’t know your age but if your similar to mine I do find it hard to understand how some of the stuff you bolded in your reply to my post doesn’t make you wonder just a little bit about how being green and saving the planet has switched from consuming less to being forced to throw away everything and consume on a massive scale stuff that when properly looked at is no greener long term than what we have already, the mayor of london for example raises the anxiety and fervour in decent caring people with outright lies about 4000 deaths a year from air pollution in london in order to fill the money gap in tfl caused by his terrible running of it and calls out publicly anyone who sees through him as far right , conspiracy theorists , covid deniers , anti vaxers ect ect ect , heat pumps will not work in this countries housing stock and millions in grants are being given to those who can afford them anyway taken from the taxes of those that can’t and struggle to afford to switch they’re boiler on , apparently they’re are more heat pumps installed in Cornish holiday homes than there are in the whole of Birmingham don’t even get me on to electric cars the whole thing is money spinning madness under the cloak of a decent aim that we all agree with , ie making the planet better and more sustainable No, it hasn't switched to making money, being 'green' is still about protecting the environment and our own health within it. If some people want to co-opt green issues and use them as a method of making money then that's not good, but it's not the fault of the environmental movement. I think we'll agree that no matter what issue is being discussed, there are people who will want to use the situation to make themselves richer. As far as I can see heat pumps, electric cars etc.. are perfectly valid ways of reducing our dependence on fossil fuels and therefore our greenhouse gas emissions. Indeed the electrification of the entire transport system is completely necessary and it's only a matter of time before it happens, although there are good arguments for concentrating first on electric motor bikes in Asia. Why do you consider the 4000 deaths a year a lie? As far as I can see, that's pretty much in line with public health research on the number of deaths in the UK from air pollution. I know it's impossible to put exact numbers on something like that, estimates are required, but why are you so convinced that it's an outright lie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Highgate said: No, it hasn't switched to making money, being 'green' is still about protecting the environment and our own health within it. If some people want to co-opt green issues and use them as a method of making money then that's not good, but it's not the fault of the environmental movement. I think we'll agree that no matter what issue is being discussed, there are people who will want to use the situation to make themselves richer. As far as I can see heat pumps, electric cars etc.. are perfectly valid ways of reducing our dependence on fossil fuels and therefore our greenhouse gas emissions. Indeed the electrification of the entire transport system is completely necessary and it's only a matter of time before it happens, although there are good arguments for concentrating first on electric motor bikes in Asia. Why do you consider the 4000 deaths a year a lie? As far as I can see, that's pretty much in line with public health research on the number of deaths in the UK from air pollution. I know it's impossible to put exact numbers on something like that, estimates are required, but why are you so convinced that it's an outright lie? I’m happy to agree to disagree with you because we probably come from a similar starting point if we go back a few years and we probably want the same things in the end but there’s a big gulf in between, the 4000 deaths a year in london from air pollution is an outright lie , there is one recorded death , the very sad case of a little girl recently, please research how the mayor has come up with this figure , it is based on a model that calculates air pollution shortens the life of every Londoner by about 4 days then extrapolated to reach the figure of 4000 deaths from air pollution every year ,it’s madness and dishonesty causing fear , also the mayors own study when examined shows the extension of the ulez to outer london will have negligible effect on air quality, if you can find me these documented 4000 deaths every year in london from air pollution then I’m happy to check it out but I can assure you it’s not there , plus the air quality in london is multitudes better than it ever was with vehicle fumes just a small part of it , being green now is totally about throwing everything we have now away in a crazy time scale and replacing it with stuff that in the long term is no more sustainable and has a massive carbon footprint to manufacture, the raw materials also are finite and totally resourced in unethical ways , just like everything there’s no balance or long term thinking , do you really believe every home in this country can be run on a heat pump ? I’m in the building trade and can tell the answer is no , if we are talking every new home built to a standard where they have a chance to work and knocking down properties and rebuilding ie starting from scratch then fine but that is not going to happen Edited April 18, 2023 by Archied Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/deathsinlondonasaresultofcaremissions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 6 hours ago, Archied said: I’m happy to agree to disagree with you because we probably come from a similar starting point if we go back a few years and we probably want the same things in the end but there’s a big gulf in between, the 4000 deaths a year in london from air pollution is an outright lie , there is one recorded death , the very sad case of a little girl recently, please research how the mayor has come up with this figure , it is based on a model that calculates air pollution shortens the life of every Londoner by about 4 days then extrapolated to reach the figure of 4000 deaths from air pollution every year ,it’s madness and dishonesty causing fear , also the mayors own study when examined shows the extension of the ulez to outer london will have negligible effect on air quality, if you can find me these documented 4000 deaths every year in london from air pollution then I’m happy to check it out but I can assure you it’s not there , plus the air quality in london is multitudes better than it ever was with vehicle fumes just a small part of it , being green now is totally about throwing everything we have now away in a crazy time scale and replacing it with stuff that in the long term is no more sustainable and has a massive carbon footprint to manufacture, the raw materials also are finite and totally resourced in unethical ways , just like everything there’s no balance or long term thinking , do you really believe every home in this country can be run on a heat pump ? I’m in the building trade and can tell the answer is no , if we are talking every new home built to a standard where they have a chance to work and knocking down properties and rebuilding ie starting from scratch then fine but that is not going to happen The cause of death isn't going to recorded as 'air pollution' on a death certificate. It will be heart disease or lung cancer, a condition that will have been caused or worsened by the air pollution. If you find 'lung cancer' on a death certificates instead of smoking cigarettes, are you then going to conclude that smoking doesn't kill people?? The link between air pollution and human mortality is well established and uncontroversial, although the estimates necessarily come with a wide margin of error. It's a complex matter trying to calculate such multivariate risks. Simply put, all other factors being equal, there is a strong positive correlation between good air quality and life expectancy. https://www.rcplondon.ac.uk/news/doctors-say-40000-deaths-year-linked-air-pollution https://www.bmj.com/content/362/bmj.k3632 https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/ambient-(outdoor)-air-quality-and-health Don't be fooled into thinking that just because 'air pollution' doesn't appear on death certs that it's not killing people on a large scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Highgate said: The cause of death isn't going to recorded as 'air pollution' on a death certificate. It will be heart disease or lung cancer, a condition that will have been caused or worsened by the air pollution. If you find 'lung cancer' on a death certificates instead of smoking cigarettes, are you then going to conclude that smoking doesn't kill people?? The link between air pollution and human mortality is well established and uncontroversial, although the estimates necessarily come with a wide margin of error. It's a complex matter trying to calculate such multivariate risks. Simply put, all other factors being equal, there is a strong positive correlation between good air quality and life expectancy. https://www.rcplondon.ac.uk/news/doctors-say-40000-deaths-year-linked-air-pollution https://www.bmj.com/content/362/bmj.k3632 https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/ambient-(outdoor)-air-quality-and-health Don't be fooled into thinking that just because 'air pollution' doesn't appear on death certs that it's not killing people on a large scale. Ah right , I see , there needs to be no proof that air quality is the cause of death directly or indirectly and even within that there’s no need to define how much of that is from vehicle fumes , it is fine for the mayor to STATE 4000 deaths a year in london from air pollution, really ? ???? You will have to excuse me being a little confused over the last few years over numbers of deaths can be attributed to whatever cause suits then without doubt can not be connected to other stuff unless proved ,,, hmmmmm , it’s all about models being used to force agendas , im at a loss to understand how some people swallow this stuff let alone work themselves into a mental and emotional state screaming about the world ending imminently, genocide and the like but hey if you believe you’ve shown the evidence of 4000 deaths a year in london from air pollution again we shall have to agree to disagree and the more this outrageous stuff is spouted the more I switch off , if the cost of having a decent life is our ever rising life expectancy being shortened by a few days I’m ok with that because that’s what these figures are based on 🤷🏻♂️ Edited April 18, 2023 by Archied Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 21 minutes ago, Archied said: Ah right , I see , there needs to be no proof that air quality is the cause of death directly or indirectly and even within that there’s no need to define how much of that is from vehicle fumes , it is fine for the mayor to STATE 4000 deaths a year in london from air pollution, really ? ???? You will have to excuse me being a little confused over the last few years over numbers of deaths can be attributed to whatever cause suits then without doubt can not be connected to other stuff unless proved ,,, hmmmmm , it’s all about models being used to force agendas , im at a loss to understand how some people swallow this stuff let alone work themselves into a mental and emotional state screaming about the world ending imminently, genocide and the like but hey if you believe you’ve shown the evidence of 4000 deaths a year in london from air pollution again we shall have to agree to disagree and the more this outrageous stuff is spouted the more I switch off , if the cost of having a decent life is our ever rising life expectancy being shortened by a few days I’m ok with that because that’s what these figures are based on 🤷🏻♂️ Just think about it like this for a moment. Do you really believe that air pollution doesn't result in reduced life expectancy, despite all the medical opinion to the contrary? If you do accept that it does adversely affect our health, then don't you agree that it's a really good idea to reduce it as much as possible? https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/air-pollution-may-be-a-leading-global-cause-of-death https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/11/deadly-air-pollution-shortens-lives-by-nearly-2-years-researchers If we are to conclude that it doesn't have an enormous effect on our health, then we simply have to conclude that medical professionals really don't know what they are talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 6 hours ago, Highgate said: Just think about it like this for a moment. Do you really believe that air pollution doesn't result in reduced life expectancy, despite all the medical opinion to the contrary? If you do accept that it does adversely affect our health, then don't you agree that it's a really good idea to reduce it as much as possible? https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/air-pollution-may-be-a-leading-global-cause-of-death https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/11/deadly-air-pollution-shortens-lives-by-nearly-2-years-researchers If we are to conclude that it doesn't have an enormous effect on our health, then we simply have to conclude that medical professionals really don't know what they are talking about. I think about that kind of stuff all the time , it’s called living , there are trade offs for EVERYTHING we do , you are happy to conclude the extreme from ONE DEATH not 4000 Londoners every year ,it’s a made up figure from the model that air pollution may SHORTEN our live by a few days over the course of our lifetime , is the mayor banning cars ? No , he is making big money from it , sorry , you have your views and that’s fine as I’ve said before but I cannot subscribe to this plucking number out the air to create fear and justify taking yet more money off ordinary working people , as I say all I see is money money money , tax tax tax , trickle down economics? More like pour up economics 🤷🏻♂️ Henrycav81 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 I don't remember seeing this reported, but in December - Extinction Rebellion announced that they were abandoning disruptive protest as a tactic - recognising that it was counter-productive and driving people away from the cause rather than towards it So now they are concentrating on trying to engage the millions who understand and believe that we are in a climate emergency, but aren't doing anything about it https://extinctionrebellion.uk/2022/12/31/we-quit/ Highgate 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram-Alf Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 On 17/04/2023 at 23:11, uttoxram75 said: Its almost as if the oil business funds them for that very reason........ The Jimmy Summerville lookalike is funded by "go fund me" asking for donations of £50 a month from contributors, Already spent sometime in the clink for blocking an oil refinery, His Father is very wealthy works as a hedge fund manager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therealhantsram Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 On 17/04/2023 at 21:57, David said: They really are doing a cracking job of alienating the population and any chance of gaining wider support outside the tree hugging community I thought this was a nice explainer of their strategy with this kind of activity, and makes the case why this doesn't necessarily alienate people as many of us would assume. Stive Pesley 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 3 minutes ago, therealhantsram said: I thought this was a nice explainer of their strategy with this kind of activity, and makes the case why this doesn't necessarily alienate people as many of us would assume. In my experience in people I talk to, see on social media and absorb opinions from so not factual with stats to back this up. Those that believe we have no issues with regards to the environmental damage and climate change are very much in the minority, the problem is those that are willing to make changes to their holiday plans, cars they buy, miles they drive are also the minority. My mates a vegan, will bore you to tears about the environment and methane that comes out a cows backside, trying to make me feel responsible for the death of the planet. He will then tell me about the cruise around the med he’s going on before driving away in either his Range Rover or Impreza. When you point out the hypocrisy it’s taken down the animal cruelty path as he has no leg to stand on. It’s laughable. I would bet you will find hypocrites amongst these Just Stop Oil lot as well, when their actions are making you late for work, dropping your kids off at school, seeing harmless events like Snooker delayed because they want to chuck either orange paint or powder about, whilst it may not alienate, I’m not sure they will win that many over either. Not that it matters, as the goal is to have a conversation they say, they see it as a win that it makes the headlines, yet the conversations that follow that I see are not they have point you know, it’s more on where are the Police and it’s time to start issuing tougher punishments too deter these types of protests. So what is the point here, the government are not listening, the protests are not gaining the support needed that will increase pressure to where it could be key in winning the next general election. They need to go back to basics, start with education, get high profile scientists on board, social media, set up non intrusive stalls in city centres not shouting in megaphones or harassing people, simply being there and allowing people the freedom to approach and ask questions. Any kind of confrontational, loud, disrupting and flat out annoying campaigns forced on people will not work. Going back to the vegans, they make great points on the cruelty aspects, yet they take this morale high ground shouty down approach that just makes you want to say, piss off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 26 minutes ago, therealhantsram said: I thought this was a nice explainer of their strategy with this kind of activity, and makes the case why this doesn't necessarily alienate people as many of us would assume. Cheers - agree that makes the point well. It's natural for people to want to look no further than the end of their noses and not want to be forced to actually think about things a bit more deeply. What they are doing is forcing people slowly to join the dots between "I am furious about these middle-class idiots who have blocked the road/disrupted the afternoon session at the snooker etc. They ruined my day" and "why am i not as furious about our governments and the oil lobby not doing anything tangible to halt the climate change that will literally end all human life on the planet for ever" Archied 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uttoxram75 Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 51 minutes ago, The Last Post said: The Jimmy Summerville lookalike is funded by "go fund me" asking for donations of £50 a month from contributors, Already spent sometime in the clink for blocking an oil refinery, His Father is very wealthy works as a hedge fund manager. Most of them are connected to the rich families, its all a bit of theatre to cause a diversion and create division amongst us. Ram-Alf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted April 19, 2023 Share Posted April 19, 2023 25 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said: Cheers - agree that makes the point well. It's natural for people to want to look no further than the end of their noses and not want to be forced to actually think about things a bit more deeply. What they are doing is forcing people slowly to join the dots between "I am furious about these middle-class idiots who have blocked the road/disrupted the afternoon session at the snooker etc. They ruined my day" and "why am i not as furious about our governments and the oil lobby not doing anything tangible to halt the climate change that will literally end all human life on the planet for ever" Slowly might be a stretch, it’s slower than that. Without wanting to get too political here, the next general election oil will not be even talked about, you know what will? So then Kier and Rishi, can women have a penis? You will have your staunch followers of either side where candidates could murder babies for fun with sledgehammers in maternity wards and still get their vote because could never vote for them. The swingers, not those kind, will be arguing over women’s anatomy. The only oil to make it into parliament will be olbas oil to help with any sniffles. The just stop oil crowd isn’t big enough slice of the voting pie to be even be worthy of a single promotional leaflet. Already it’s been knocked off Sky News homepage for a woman that jumped in a car for 2.5miles of a marathon, same with the BBC. The conversation is very brief and does not gain enough traction to stay relevant in the news. Ram-Alf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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