The Ukraine War

[sage]

5 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Well done Liz Truss. 

You've got people going out there to earn tiktok follows now. Oh, I mean fight. 

I'm sure they'll be able to tell the difference between one Slav and the next. I'm sure they'll know how to work under extreme stress, possibly operate and maintain weapons. No problem with the language being able to read or communicate. And then there's the matter of insurance for death, injuries etc. 

Wonder if they'll feel good about the fine work of Ukraine's Azov Batalion. Or how they're prepared to be taken prisoner by Russian forces. 

Excellent work Liz. Up there with 

"We'll cut them off at the knees" and suggestions that this is the start of a bigger war with Europe/NATO. 

Is it not enough that Russia is reacting to security threats and conflict in Crimea and Donbas by mounting a full scale assault on Ukraine. Is that not enough truth? 

Does she have to play the whole new Hitler angle. 

Go free citizens of the world. Go to Ukraine and fight for NATO so that NATO doesn't break their treaties officially

it's all about her image. To be fair she is maintaining her image as a moron

[1of4]

41 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

Go on then, find the bit where I suggested that? Have fun!

In  an actual sentence you haven't. But from reading some of your posts, that the conclusion I've come to.

And thankyou for all the fun.

[Alph]

23 minutes ago, sage said:

it's all about her image. To be fair she is maintaining her image as a moron

Irresponsible. 

I expect some of those going to be stupid enough to not know what they could be facing. 

She should know. 

She's a dream for Russian propaganda.

[Alph]

29 minutes ago, 1of4 said:

In  an actual sentence you haven't. But from reading some of your posts, that the conclusion I've come to.

And thankyou for all the fun.

I think you've failed to understand Russian people and their history plus the situation/events in East Ukraine if you think he's saying that. 

It's that failure to recognise that history and the tie between the two nations (and other Soviet states) by America and its allies that has antagonised Russia. I think it's widely believed they failed to recognise it on purpose and aggressively pursued securing these areas. 

It's a bit like messing with an aggressive dog. If the dog bites and its in the wrong... you're still bitten. 

I'm not suggesting you give into this particular dog either. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Alpha

[1of4]

Come on now, we can't be disparaging our Foreign Secretary.  The only Russians she's met until recently, are friendly chaps who like handing out brown envelopes stuffed full of cash.

[cstand]

9 minutes ago, 1of4 said:

Come on now, we can't be disparaging our Foreign Secretary.  The only Russians she's met until recently, are friendly chaps who like handing out brown envelopes stuffed full of cash.

Meanwhile back on topic any truth this report!

https://theweek.com/russo-ukrainian-war/1010733/ukraine-says-its-pilots-are-in-poland-picking-up-donated-mig-29-fighter?amp

[Alph]

31 minutes ago, Alpha said:

I think you've failed to understand Russian people and their history plus the situation/events in East Ukraine if you think he's saying that. 

It's that failure to recognise that history and the tie between the two nations (and other Soviet states) by America and its allies that has antagonised Russia. I think it's widely believed they failed to recognise it on purpose and aggressively pursued securing these areas. 

It's a bit like messing with an aggressive dog. If the dog bites and its in the wrong... you're still bitten. 

I'm not suggesting you give into this particular dog either. 

Just to argue my own point while I wait for Pizza

Shouldn't these countries be free to choose their own future. 

Yes, absolutely 

But then we get into the dispute with the referendums held in Luhansk and Donestk which is what really matters. 

Especially when dealing with an ex KGB officer of the Soviet Union nearby. America isn't shy of recognising these rebellions when it suits them. It's not shy when it comes to proxy wars. 

[ramit]

8 hours ago, cstand said:

Meanwhile back on topic any truth this report!

https://theweek.com/russo-ukrainian-war/1010733/ukraine-says-its-pilots-are-in-poland-picking-up-donated-mig-29-fighter?amp

Bulgaria and Slovakia have both denied offering planes to Ukraine, Bulgarian official adding that they have too few fighters.  The story was that the planes would be based in Poland and fly into Ukraine on combat missions, a ludicrous idea that would quickly see open hostilities between Nato and Russia.  In spite of the denials, this story continues to be posted.

[cstand]

1 minute ago, ramit said:

Bulgaria and Slovakia have both denied offering planes to Ukraine, Bulgarian official adding that they have too few fighters.  The story was that the planes would be based in Poland and fly into Ukraine on combat missions, a ludicrous idea that would quickly see open hostilities between Nato and Russia.  In spite of the denials, this story continues to be posted.

Thought it was a made up story but Mrs C Stand was asking me.

[cstand]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

Irresponsible. 

I expect some of those going to be stupid enough to not know what they could be facing. 

She should know. 

She's a dream for Russian propaganda.

She probably thought  Russia would have enough propaganda from the Labour MPs Stop the War campaign telling everyone Russia was not the aggressor. Unbelievable Jeff.

[TigerTedd]

1 hour ago, BaaLocks said:

There are only three options on the table.

OPTION ONE: Leave Ukraine to fight it's own bitter and elongated war with one of two conclusions. Vietnam or Afghanistan style, they grind the aggressor into realising it isn't worth the fight but burn their country to rubble in the process. Or, alternately, they are subsumed either quickly or slowly and become an extension of Russia.

OPTION TWO: Send in troops to help repel Russia and spin the wheel where that one ends, anywhere from stalemate to nuclear annihilation. Your point on sanctions is an extension of this, though imho the last thing they will cause is Putin to throw in the towel and admit he's a busted flush. And sanctions will likely harden opinion against the West, just look at Iraq, Cuba or wherever to see how well they work.

OPTION THREE: Let the conflict play out but negotiate for some form of compromise in the background. This feels like the option the likes of Macron are promoting at the moment.

Russian troops are in Ukraine now, we can argue it till we drop on whether it is right or wrong, whether the reasons are understood, whether Putin is evil or not. And he is not going to retreat or withdraw, no matter how wrong he is to be there. These are the facts, and this is what all parties have to work with.

Horrible though it is to say, the people who will decide how many die in the conflict are not the Russians, who undeniably have the firepower to cause untold misery, but those on the other side who need to decide how much resistance is enough. Czech Republic is one example here, both in 1939 and 1968. They accepted that strong resistance would only lead to extreme casualties, it was unimaginable in both scenarios that sixty years later they would be free, an EU member and independent in every single respect.

And that is where I hope the West have their focus, on ensuring that whichever of the conclusions we end up we do so with the least possible loss of life.

I was think, if I was being tortured, you could do whatever you want, pull my finger nails off, chop my toes off, brand new, water board me, whatever, but as soon as you threaten to pull my teeth out, I’ll give you everything you want to know. 

so if the torturers had just started with the teeth, or just told me, this is where we’re going to end up, it would probably save me having to lose my toes. 

by that analogy, I mean, if putin just said, ‘look, if you don’t give in, I’m just going to end up homing you, so you might as well give in now, and save yourself lots of suffering while we gradually build up the violence until that point. 

I like your point about Czechoslovakia, but given enough time, the map will always change. So what’s the point in anything really. Might as well tell the Anglo-saxon’s to bide their time against the romans, and one day they’ll have an empire twice the size. All these wars and things are all very pointless when viewed over a big enough timescale. 

[Bris Vegas]

Putin is evil. There are obviously different levels of evil. But he is killing innocent people for personal gain/beliefs. Where is the democracy? Don’t the innocent people of Ukraine get a choice in this?

Let them vote.

Anyone who stays in power for numerous years and has his opposition either killed or thrown in jail is a ruthless, evil dictator. Crazy to suggest otherwise. 

[Tamworthram]

3 hours ago, BaaLocks said:

There are only three options on the table.

OPTION ONE: Leave Ukraine to fight it's own bitter and elongated war with one of two conclusions. Vietnam or Afghanistan style, they grind the aggressor into realising it isn't worth the fight but burn their country to rubble in the process. Or, alternately, they are subsumed either quickly or slowly and become an extension of Russia.

OPTION TWO: Send in troops to help repel Russia and spin the wheel where that one ends, anywhere from stalemate to nuclear annihilation. Your point on sanctions is an extension of this, though imho the last thing they will cause is Putin to throw in the towel and admit he's a busted flush. And sanctions will likely harden opinion against the West, just look at Iraq, Cuba or wherever to see how well they work.

OPTION THREE: Let the conflict play out but negotiate for some form of compromise in the background. This feels like the option the likes of Macron are promoting at the moment.

Russian troops are in Ukraine now, we can argue it till we drop on whether it is right or wrong, whether the reasons are understood, whether Putin is evil or not. And he is not going to retreat or withdraw, no matter how wrong he is to be there. These are the facts, and this is what all parties have to work with.

Horrible though it is to say, the people who will decide how many die in the conflict are not the Russians, who undeniably have the firepower to cause untold misery, but those on the other side who need to decide how much resistance is enough. Czech Republic is one example here, both in 1939 and 1968. They accepted that strong resistance would only lead to extreme casualties, it was unimaginable in both scenarios that sixty years later they would be free, an EU member and independent in every single respect.

And that is where I hope the West have their focus, on ensuring that whichever of the conclusions we end up we do so with the least possible loss of life.

So what you’re saying is, the best option is for the west to adopt the most humane approach, end sanctions and negotiate a deal, at the expense no doubt of Ukraines sovereignty and right of self determination, because there is no way Russia will back down and avoid further blood shed or suffering for their own citizens as a result of the sanctions?

Is there not a fourth option whereby Ukraine reluctantly surrenders, in order to avoid further deaths but the sanctions remain in force unless Russia withdraws? I know from your earlier post that you doubt the sanctions would have sufficient impact to cause the Russians to withdraw but I really can’t imagine how long their reserves (those they’ll actually able to access and utilise) will be able to prop up the economy.

 

[ramit]

Is this the dreaded label of today, Putin apologist?  Anyone can be accused of it, it's such fun throwing it out there and then letting them deny it.

 

 

[Alph]

46 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

Putin is evil. There are obviously different levels of evil. But he is killing innocent people for personal gain/beliefs. Where is the democracy? Don’t the innocent people of Ukraine get a choice in this?

Let them vote.

Anyone who stays in power for numerous years and has his opposition either killed or thrown in jail is a ruthless, evil dictator. Crazy to suggest otherwise. 

He's not killing for personal gain/beliefs. 

He's doing it for the Soviet Union (I know)

He's doing it for Russian security against NATO expansion and Ukraine is key strategically (again, I know)

He's doing it to free Donetsk and Luhansk

He's doing it to aid Crimea

I don't agree that any of what he's done is the best solution at all.  Because I'm a normal rational person and not an ex KGB officer idealist who witnessed the fall of the Soviet Union and the effects of it on Russia with many years holding a grudge against America. 

But he is. And everything bad he's done is in pursuit of a creating a better life and brighter future for Russian people (and those he considers Russian!!) 

It's a scary mentality. He's a guy for whom the Cold War never ended and he's not alone. Evil? I don't think so but I guess it's irrelevant anyway. He is what he is. Done what he's done (good and bad)

Just to ask you (this isn't a loaded question with a point, I'm genuinely interested in your answer)

What do you make of the right to freedom of the Republics in Donetsk and Luhansk? 

What do you think about the annexation of Crimea?

Were the actions of America and it's allies evil in the Middle East? 

(Again, only interested in the answer. I'm not ready with a load of prepared answers. I would love to see an agreement made that leaves Ukraine neutral and free so peace can last.) 

[Cisse]

1 hour ago, Bris Vegas said:

Putin is evil. There are obviously different levels of evil. But he is killing innocent people for personal gain/beliefs. Where is the democracy? Don’t the innocent people of Ukraine get a choice in this?

Let them vote.

Anyone who stays in power for numerous years and has his opposition either killed or thrown in jail is a ruthless, evil dictator. Crazy to suggest otherwise. 

There has never been a democracy in Russia or Soviet Union.

[Alph]

11 minutes ago, ramit said:

Is this the dreaded label of today, Putin apologist?  Anyone can be accused of it, it's such fun throwing it out there and then letting them deny it.

 

 

It's a horrible label. 

Because he's not a simple villain from a Bond movie. He's also the other side of the coin to America who aren't strangers to an invasion or two, the odd proxy war, the occasional atomic bomb and just countless civilian deaths. 

When he opposes them is it always a bad thing? When he tests their influence is it always him playing the tyrant? 

When he recognised the Donetsk and Luhansk Republics and annexed Crimea, it was against others... but was he wrong? 100% wrong? 

Apologising for his war in Ukraine? Never. 

For the political opponents he's silenced? Never.

There is no apologising for him. It's just unlike Bond villains there's more to him than wanting to destroy the world (or there was... )

[ramit]

The US president can't string two sentences together and this is his VP.

 

[Alph]

Please ignore last couple of posts from me if you weren't already!

I think I've done enough backing Russian opposition to American/Western threats/expansion.

Whatever Putin has done good in the world will be overshadowed by the bad. That's his own fault and he doesn't deserve the constant explaining on his behalf. 

I'm glad guys on here gave another perspective but ultimately that doesn't need constantly driving forward while there's a war on. Whatever threats there are to Russia are not as big as they are now thanks to him. Just going to pray now that some sense prevails.

[Bris Vegas]

2 hours ago, Alpha said:

He's not killing for personal gain/beliefs. 

He's doing it for the Soviet Union (I know)

He's doing it for Russian security against NATO expansion and Ukraine is key strategically (again, I know)

He's doing it to free Donetsk and Luhansk

He's doing it to aid Crimea

I don't agree that any of what he's done is the best solution at all.  Because I'm a normal rational person and not an ex KGB officer idealist who witnessed the fall of the Soviet Union and the effects of it on Russia with many years holding a grudge against America. 

But he is. And everything bad he's done is in pursuit of a creating a better life and brighter future for Russian people (and those he considers Russian!!) 

It's a scary mentality. He's a guy for whom the Cold War never ended and he's not alone. Evil? I don't think so but I guess it's irrelevant anyway. He is what he is. Done what he's done (good and bad)

Just to ask you (this isn't a loaded question with a point, I'm genuinely interested in your answer)

What do you make of the right to freedom of the Republics in Donetsk and Luhansk? 

What do you think about the annexation of Crimea?

Were the actions of America and it's allies evil in the Middle East? 

(Again, only interested in the answer. I'm not ready with a load of prepared answers. I would love to see an agreement made that leaves Ukraine neutral and free so peace can last.) 

Russia doesn’t need Ukraine. It doesn’t. But Putin wants Ukraine.

You are evil if you are content to kill innocent people to get what you want. I’m sorry but I just can’t see it any other way.

Invading Ukraine won’t make the average Russian better. The current sanctions are leaving them worse.

Throw in dictatorship, state media propaganda, outright lies and a lack of democracy. Putin needs putting down.

Just as for your questions, I guess I’m a fan of democracy and it should have been left up to the people of Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk to decide.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Bris Vegas